With the recent news of one Dick Smith customer finding his “new” 1.5TB hard drive filled with pirated movies and a maximum capacity only a fraction of its advertised size, other customers and even former employees have emerged from the woodwork to reveal similar experiences with a number of popular retailers, including Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi.
According to these new reports, collected by the Sydney Morning Herald, the practise of refurbishing returned goods and slapping them back on the shelf and selling them as new is extremely common — to the extent it’s almost considered standard policy.
The stories collated include one person buying a “new’ washing machine containing water and pests; an expensive laptop that had “obviously been used” and a camera with a collection of unexpected photos. Harvey Norman rep Ben McIntosh said the company will follow up on the allegations, as well as “remind” its stores that what they’re doing is against the law.
The odd thing is, employee reports indicate stores are provided all the equipment they need to engage in these unlawful activities, including cleaning materials and shrink-wrapping devices. It makes it hard to believe that upper management is totally unaware of what’s going on.
The Good Guys and Bing Lee weren’t keen to chat to SMH, and the paper is waiting for a response from JB Hi-Fi, if one is forthcoming at all. Apparently in the case of the used Dick Smith hard drive, the retailer simply said it was a “one-off”.
The kerfuffle hasn’t passed unnoticed by the government, with NSW Fair Trading set to investigate these incidents further to determine just how malignant the practise is.
Any Giz AU readers out there that have found themselves with new goods that, well, weren’t? Let us know.
[SMH]
J.
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 11:38 AMBought an iPad 2 from JB Hi-Fi in august which had scratches on its back. Didnt get it replaced because i thought it came this way from the factory and i wasnt too fussy about it. If i remember correctly, it didnt have the front lcd cover on it as well which you take off before using the device for the first time. Got duped i guess.
Stevan O
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 12:18 PMI just bought a Belkin D600 router from Darwin Jb Hi-Fi yesterday and could tell it was second hand because the settings for the modem were already filled in with someone else details!
Ps: Belkin are crap!
Franz
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 11:01 PMBought a 3DS from Harvey Norman and it came pre-loaded with it’s entire catalogue of games.
Peter
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:00 PMI bought a Nintendo DS back when it came out all those years ago and the game I got with it already had a save file. This came from Electronics Boutique and was sold as new. Naughty, naughty.
Anthony
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:13 PMEB Games sell games that have been returned within 7 days as “new”
BenDTU
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 7:12 PMI was going to say this as well.
Roman
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:38 AMbut you also expect a FULL refund within those 7 days.
if you buy from there you know that’s what you are (possibly) getting
buyersareliars
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 12:53 PMBefore the arm chair critics say too much everyone should take a step back and reflect on Noz’s and similar comments. The Media does much to beat up Retailers who actually have very little legal protection from unscrupulous buyers who have the misguided notion that they are always right. If the product doesn’t do what it was intended to that is one thing but using the product for a specific purpose then returning it or simply changing your mind is completely immoral. Yes there are some “bad” retailers but they usually end up out of business. There are many more “bad” customers who will cheat and lie to get what they want. The media who has for years enjoyed the fruits of paid advertising seem to print what people want to hear, not what they need to know…interestingly as e-commerce gains momentum and advertising revenue dries up many of these moronic journalists are finding themselves out of work. No wonder many of today’s younger generation are irresponsible and without direction. The fish always smells from the head down and its about time we took some responsibility for our actions. BUYERS ARE LIARS
peter
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 5:47 PMYes to some extent you are correct, but it is the fault of the retailers and businesses for thinking they can and do dupe the customer in products and services and they are the ones that plead ignorance when quoted the law saying it does not apply to them until they are caught so you say buyers are liars well,
SELLERS ARE WANKERS
Jemand
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 6:12 PMI used to work for myer. The customers were often scum – returning goods many months after using, expecting a full refund. One guy returned three laptops, last one had an invisible defect on the exterior. What do customers expect happens to these goods? Throw them out? Discount and resell to customer’s friend? People are so ignorant. Retailers are in business, not free rental charity.
brian
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 1:46 PM26 ht DEC, tried to return 2 games to eb games, they just would not accept them for return, even tho both failed to load, citing some security fault,
games that wont load and you cant return, battlefield 3 and home front be came the first person who said yes to i have a PC’s Christmas present.
I for one will be dealing “on line” the personal touch makes my skin crawl these days.
Stephen
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 4:03 AMSo you’re saying that because some buyers game Australia’s return laws the next person shouldn’t complain that they’re getting something that’s used?
Your argument fails, and you also fail to support your claim that Australian retailers all have such a hard life.
buyersareliars
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 11:39 AMStephen, you haven’t actually read what I wrote. Dishonesty from buyers or sellers is simply not on. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Node Pony
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 1:13 PMThat’s a bit harsh! You are saying that all buyers are liars. Some buyers are liars is what you should have said.
By extension, you have called yourself a liar, you have bought items in the past, yes?
Kevn
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:16 PMI used to do home installs for HN customers through a contract company. Was setting up a new laptop and camera for a customer when it became clear they’d be taken on holiday by a staff member. Made an angry call to the manager and the lady got them replaced.
PJC
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:31 AMWhen our friend retired 4 years ago she went to Harvey Norman to purchase her first computer. She literally requested the very best computer in the whole shop. It had pornography on it, and upon complaint was told this was the fault of the factory.
bbb
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:25 PMBrand new dryer from Retravision for me – it had obviously been used and there was nasty melted plastic in the drum.
NOZ
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:26 PMBare in mind a lot of customera return these goods “as new” saying they have never been used. store policies would be to inspect but these units upon return for evidence of tampering. if the package appears unopened it wouldnt be considered neccessary to opened an “unused” item as the staff member would be de-valueing the product to do so. i understand it falls into the retailers responsibilty to ensure goods are *new* but in a lot of cases its taken in good faith from customers that they themselves have done the right thing. keep in mind that branding these good as refurbished if in fact they are happen and in so would generally come from suppliers this way. having worked at most electronic retailers this is usually the case. but they are not refurbished but should be considered *used/returned* items in the previously mentioned instances.
NOZ
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:33 PMi guess another way to look at it would be requirements to return goods should be more stringent and therefore leniency to the customer would be less. some stores do charge a repackaging fee which in a sense is fair as the product would go o. sale as secind hand. 20% tenda to be *mentioned* practise but what customer would agree to that!
twitchy
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 2:27 PMi agree, this is a customer created evil and the solution is for retailers to be draconian when dealing with any kind of returns. so what do you want people, super strict return policies or the chance you could receive a slightly used product which any retailer should swap over for you if required? i’d choose the later.
NOZ
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:37 PMproblem is and dare i say it to make the unaware…so… if u kick up a stink to return so return something… u generally will. if the manager says no. then they write a letter to headoffice who say fix it. then u have an angry customer who wont shop again or if they will will be the same…so stuff is returned just to keep the peace if u get me.
Shane
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 12:34 PMAlso remember than many laundry machines are tested before leaving the manufacturer.
Thruppence
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 1:24 PMShould we be surprised? They are ALL thieving scum….
SilentWolf
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 1:46 PMyeah we should all go live in the outback and be all hippies away from the theiving corporations -.-
GJGB
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 1:49 PMAmen, brudda
morkai
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PMYeah and I’m sure there’s never been a single customer that’s ever lied when as the question “has the product been opened/used?”
Retail guy
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 1:44 PMlol, I worked at an electronics store and a major department store and stuff comes back in the bucket loads every day and just goes straight back on the shelf. After xmas you’ll have literally 40 trolleys packed full of ‘returns’ which go straight back on the shelf. If the packaging is damaged some sticky tape and staples plus the usual, “just like a bought one” quip would be the usual. The Service counter staff are supposed to check it but as if they’re going to plug a portable hard drive in and check it isn’t used.
Anonymous
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 2:03 PMI am an ex Harvey Norman employee and my job was the returns clerk. IF you return something it will be sold as new, usually they take every precaution to wipe hard drives and make sure there is no evidence of the fact it is not brand new. There is a factory sealed sticker on all laptops nowadays if the seal is broken they will feed you a line about checking its the right product or it came that way just ask them to get another one from out back or you will leave.
50% of my job was wiping hard drives doing factory resets and even calling reps to get new packaging for some products so that they could be sold as new even if the product had been used for weeks.
Technically this is illegal but I was advised to do so by my employer so I am protected against legal action, HN in particular is well aware of this practice I had 2 seperate Franchisee’s who requested this.
Finally its not the only dodgy thing they do if they cant re-sell it as brand new they have someone like me “kill” the unit (I am an electronics technician) so that it can be sent back as DOA they even generate false sales invoices using names from their database to back up their claim.
wardski
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 10:41 PMBack in 2008, I bought a HTC TyTn II from Harveys. I knew it was used, as the internal call counter could not be reset, and the phone had been powered on for over 40 hours.
I ended up taking back 3 units until I found one with 0 on the counter.
It’s interesting this is only now coming to light. This behaviour has been going on for years……
Spatio
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 10:01 AM‘Technically this is illegal but I was advised to do so by my employer so I am protected against legal action.’
That defence failed at Nuremberg.
xHN
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:40 PMi know this is true.. it was basically my job description.. few years back
Against Dodginess
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 2:22 PMI know at least Officeworks labels returned/damaged/refurbished goods as such and sells them at a discount. Surprised that other retailers would attempt to pass them off as new.
idontwannagetfired
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 9:00 PMNot always – as an Officeworks employee I can tell you that if the box is in good nick and there’s nothing wrong with the product, a lot of the time it will just be shrink wrapped and put on the shelf (or sometimes not even shrink wrapped).
AnonymousD
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 4:39 PMI also work at Officeworks. The policy is, its its returned as not suitable (i.e. not faulty, they just didn’t want it) and its been opened, it’s meant to be marked down and have a returned sticker put on it.
If you go into an Officeworks store you’ll see the little white stickers on products that have been returned.
Perhaps other retailers should follow suit.
Stevorooni
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 2:51 PMI don’t like how EB resell 7-day-returns as brand new, but I guess the only way they’ll stop doing that is if they stop doing 7-day-returns, which will piss off the people who like using it as a free rental service.
wardski
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 10:44 PMI agree. How do they go doing this with the games that require you to register the internal code for online play like F1 2011?? AFAIK, for F1 2011, this registration code is a once off, and if you picked up the game 2nd hand, you would not be able to use this code, and would be forced to then have to purchase another code (in addition to the cost of the game) worth $12 via the Playstation store in order to then play online.
There are so many catches out there for 2nds game buyers…
Anon
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 10:18 AMFunny you mention that, I also used to work @ a Harvey Norman, and it was quite common practice between those staff members who were into PC gaming (Which was, lets face it, about 90% of us at the time), staff members used to pick new games off the shelf, open them up, photo-copy the unique CD-Key from within, then use the shrink-wrapper out back to re-seal the game, placing it back onto the shelf for sale, knowing full well that the game is more-or-less useless by the time the customer gets a hold of it, as its unique key will have already been used.
Saw that happen entirely too many times…
Also saw staff members walk out of the store with copy’s of GTA4 on PS3 (The pre-recalled version) which managed to walk out the door a good 2 weeks before the street release date…
LightStar
Thursday, December 29, 2011 at 2:46 PMEB staff actually tells you that if you buy games like StarCraft II and F1, which game activation is based on a unique serial number key, the product cannot be returned (there is NO 7-days return or ANY return on games that are based on online serial key activation). So I don’t think there is any second hand StarCraft II, for example, on the EB shelf as new simply because they don’t allow returns on those games.
Tas
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PMI’m not at all surprised that ‘The Good Guys’ weren’t keen on talking.
Bought a Topfield PVR featuring a veritable myriad of very un-factory-fresh scratches.
Maybe somebody should also enquire about their “15% off ticketed prices” sales, when the ‘ticketed’ prices don’t even vaguely reflect current rec retail. Harvey Norman – equal offender in this regard.
I still laugh/cringe when I ponder that at the time I bought a set of Logitech Z-5500 speakers a couple of years ago, the list price had progressively dropped over the previous 18 months in $50 chunks from $599 to $449 (reflected accurately at one of HN’s competitors).
On the very day I bought them (at Umart for $329), Harvey Norman had them on the shelf for not $599 but $699 – the price they had been three years prior!
incontrovertible
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 7:52 PMAll products that come into a Harvey Norman are booked in under the POS (point of sale) computer system which tells the stockhand what sticker to print. Under POS a salesperson can check what price the item cost the store to buy with the price on the sticker representing the RRP as known by POS.
HN will always price match where possible as they want the sale, but they only price match with other actual stores like JB or Target, not online retailers like UMart or Computer Alliance. That said as long as the store doesn’t lose money by matching a price they will generally match it. Thats because it gains you as a customer which is more valuable than the price of one product, plus they can offer extended warranties whereas a lot of other places can’t. It should be noted that whenever people came in wanting to price match with an internet only store it was because that store had none of the product in stock.
If you have bad experiences with non-moving prices it is either because doing so would be losing money or you are a terrible person to the salesperson. From working at HN I can tell you that they do not want to rip people off, but if you treat them like shit they are under no obligation to change the price for you.
If you are understanding and nice to the staff they will bend over backwards to help you.
Tas
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:14 PMForgot to mention – many years ago a store employee from Brashs (remember them?!) told me it was the norm to open boxes for demo VCR’s from the underside. I wonder how many demo unit TV’s/laptops that end up running all day everyday for months get a bit of a vacuum then …
incontrovertible
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:23 PMAll I can say is that I worked as a computer salesperson and stockhand @ a Brisbane Harvey Norman for 4 years until the start of 2011. During that time the only used stock we sold were official refurbished Toshiba laptops that were marked as such, and display models/units of which the buyer is also aware is used.
Seeing as each store and each section of the store (furniture/computers/electrical) is its own franchise (business) this would be found on a store-by-store basis and is not a reflection of the company as a whole.
NOZ
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:40 PMgood point.
Chrishtoph
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 2:23 AMPR much?
If not, get your nose out of HN’s ass.
AnonymousD
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 4:43 PMMaking a fair comment much? Go troll somewhere else.
twitchy
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:25 PMI’m no fan of the retail giants but i am a former retail store manager and i really don’t like this article. i think you have to be very naive not to think this happens in just about all retail the world over and as such singling out a handful of companies is pretty low.
honestly, shrink wrapping machines and cleaning products are “equipment needed to engage in unlawful activities”?? i’m at a loss for words here…how to guide you back to the land of reality from this place is beyond me.
in my eyes this problem is created by overly self-entitled customers who believe they can use something for a while and return it for a full refund with no good reason. this problem is made worse by large companies using ‘easy returns’ as an incentive to customers, pandering to fickle consumers and not realistically covering the costs incurred.
i think what’s also overlooked here is the conflict of interest for sales managers and alike in this circumstance who usually work on commission and store performance targets. while the company policy may say something is black and white…reality is a lot more grey. add this to what NOZ and others are saying above about customers not being honest about the state of the returned item and pointing the finger of blame at 3 retailers i think is a pathetic attempt to ride the wave of big retail hatred that’s been welling up recently over online and O/S buying.
As someone who has experienced both sides of this (i.e. consumer and retail management) i think the fair thing would be for customers to only receive as a refund the value for which the retailer is now able to sell the product. so if they’ll have to discount it by 20% to sell it because it is now “used” the customer only gets back 80% of what they spent. after all, we’re primarily talking about customers using and returning things…as a fellow customer i don’t think it’s fair to rip into these companies for problems that originate in the customer base. this will never be a popular policy though and this problem will remain and ultimately the line between ‘returned and still new’ and ‘returned and now much be classed as used’ will be decided by people…human beings that have their own motivation and failings. mistakes will happen and suggesting that this represents big businesses desire to screw people….which….when you say that the companies supply their weapons of mass manipulation to stores (cleaning products) is odd…that’s really what you’re implying there…i do not believe this is an accurate and balanced summary of this issue.
end rant
Fred
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 6:14 PMSo breaching the consumer protection legislation – eg, the old Trade Practices Act ect – is fine? If it is store policy? Because you would have to be very niave to think it doesn’t happen all the time?
This is what consumer protection legislation is all about. I hope the ACCC are all over this.
While I agree with charging less than scrupulous purchasers the difference between initial sale and resale value, where is that line drawn? Is it arbitrated by a third party? What is a good that is broken or not fit for purpose, as opposed to an attempt at a free week-long rental (for example)? Which would be fair if the stores stop lying about used being new…but they’d lose money so they’d keep labelling the used product as new even if they only had to refund 80% of the price – according to standard practice and being the opposite of very niave.
The store is the judge of that at present. Any independent assessment is too expensive. But unless the laws change, the stores cannot sell used as new and SHOULD NOT do so.
End of story, end of rant in response.
twitchy
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 11:31 PMNowhere did I advocate breaking the law and I am well aware that this happens. I don’t fear it though as I check my purchases and know my rights.
I hear you regarding the difficulty in the decision making process to decide if it’s now used or still new. I don’t think this ambiguity helps either customers or businesses. simply, If the customer is not at fault (ie product failure or doesn’t fit description) they should owe the store nothing.
You know what I think would be interesting, businesses publicly sharing stories of the bullsh*t customers have pulled in the same way as customers shaming the corporations for their misdeeds. Those companies care about their image though so they don’t to it but my point is there are multiple sides to this issue and only 1 of these is discussed in the article. I believe the place we should aim for regarding this issue requires improved behaviour by both parties (customers and business). Seriously I’ve been lied to by customers so many times when discussing returns, straight to my face while I’m trying to help them.
Ethically I don’t believe it’s right to call out a person or group for regularly taking liberties with these issues without assessing the actions of customers who do exactly the same thing. By the way, have you noticed that the picture for this page has changed from the dick smith logo to some presents? maybe because singling them out was unfair as i suggested above?
Open, balanced discussion is awesome and leads to enlightenment and the development of our civilisation. One-sided crap like this only serves to sell newspapers/advertising as all you suckers swallow the story like good little boys and girls while actually gaining no further understanding of the issue for reading it.
Gb
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:32 PMYou need to find a job that doesnt involve human lIfe coz seems you have a bit of aggression to deal with
twitchy
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 11:39 PMRun along now GB the adults are talking.
LightStar
Thursday, December 29, 2011 at 2:59 PMShut up twitchy, don’t come here and talk all condescending. If you so call yourself adult, act like one, retard. And stop being so immature as if you know it all. You’re not the only mind here, and as grandly you put it, your words and attitude is oh-so-helpful for “civilization”.
Learn to respect others first before you come here and pretend to be an adult, kid.
twitchy
Friday, December 30, 2011 at 12:10 PMNo response to any of the points I raised though?
I like your “I’ll tell you off while acting like douche myself” attitude, you sure have shown me the error of my ways ;)
Luke
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 3:30 PMThe TV i had recently bought was previously floor stock but they didnt tell me, which looking back it seems obvious because it had $400 taken off the price.
The remote already had the batteries in it, the TV didnt have the protective plastic on it, the box was already opened and taped back up and lastly it didnt come with a power cord. I phoned Radio Rentals and the gave me a brand new cord.
Jamie
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 4:21 PMIm manager at a retail computer store and a 15% re-stocking fee is standard practice at my store for goods returned without faults (eg bought the wrong thing or didnt need it etc). I dont particularly like it as don’t most customers but the unfortunate reality is that the profit margins in private and local computer stores are so low that a restocking fee is a necessary evil, if I’m to do the right thing and sell a returned item at a discounted price.
As for EB Games, I have a few mates working there and apperently its pretty standard practice for staff to take home new games and return them for a full refund within 7 days. I would find it very hard to believe that upper management is unaware of this as it seems to be a pretty common knowledge among employees an store managers.
chris
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 4:28 PMIn singapore i bought asus transformer andtheirpolicy was to open all goods and make me inspect it for scratches and marks and make sure its new then i had to sign to say it was new so i couldnt come back later and say it wasn’t or something, just covering thier arse i guess as maybe some dodgy stuff happens over there.
rusty
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 4:54 PMI’m sure if the stores knocked a few bucks off and advertised the items as “refurbished, with warranty” or somesuch they would move the stock. It sure beats outright lying IMHO. Just how greedy are the stores that do this?
NOZ
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 11:49 PMits not about being a greedy store. with the rate people change their mind how could stores afford it anyway? whether you like to believe it or not…people are buying less…products are being sold cheaper then ever at less profit then ever. u would say stores are too expensive because the mentality is stores arent allowed to make money.
Esophagus
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 5:06 PMI can state for a fact Dick Smith have processes to deal with returned stock, including removing the facility for a change of mind refund. Its company policy on any returned item with the capacity to store user data will print a quarantine docket and should be isolated until stock is in an acceptable state to sell or clear (if missing parts for example)
Jay Kea
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 6:03 PMCamera from Dick Smith. Box was damaged and the tripod screw bit had scratches all around it from the previous owner. I wouldn’t have minded if it was advertised as used with a $10 discou t or something.
Also, clearly someone was running out of HD space, bought an external 1.5tb, gutted it and swapped it for their old 0.03tb drive, then returned it.
Esophagus
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:02 PMIt was probably a display model. It should have been marked and sold as much. If a salesperson doesn’t notice, you should let them know if you still want it.
bdc
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 7:33 PMWhat about giz readers who were previously store managers and know for a fact this comes direct from head office and their feigned ignorance is ridiculous.
It’s not “almost considered standard policy” it IS standard policy.
That being said, if something is defective (we used to test whatever was returned) then it would be sent back to H/O. If it didn’t appear defective and the customer insisted, standard practice was to refund them and put it back in with the new stock.
Oh also, I bought a “new” $1000 Beyonwiz PVR from the Good Guys that had clearly been opened, and then when I plugged it in it had random recordings (out of business hours recordings), and the dvd drive didn’t work correctly.
Esophagus
Sunday, December 25, 2011 at 11:07 PMDick Smith has policies for marking returned stock. No store is supplied with any tools to “newify” products, like shrink wrap machines.
jaded
Saturday, December 24, 2011 at 8:07 PMThe parents bought a computer from Target way back in the day, they sold it as new but all the bundled software was already registered to someone else, and the thing was full of malware of all sorts.
Dan
Monday, December 26, 2011 at 6:57 AMNew computers being full of malware from the factory is entirely normal; Norton Anti-Virus, for instance.