Lenovo On The Slow, Painful Evolution Of Keyboards

@UnderLoK:
VIM FTMFW.
lol, yeah, I use Vim on my computer, I have a MacBook which has a pretty small escape key, but like someone said, its position makes it easier to hit.

My computer doesn't have a Delete key in the Windows sense (Mac calls Backspace 'delete') but there is fn+delete. However, I honestly don't ever use this feature. I either select text with my mouse to delete, or in Vim I use a command like v$d or lx to delete characters in front of my cursor.

kzooguy

30 employees of the same department - what a sample.
Apple success = one eyed is the king in the land of blind.

ypctx

@SwatLax:
The  key is in a better location, and the keys have a better feel and positioning than on any other keyboard I've used.

I think it's funny that we are still using the same QWERTY (Super fun to type...) layout from the original Remington type writers....

They swapped the layout around and made it more confusing to use so when people typed on it, the keys wouldn't collide and clash as they would had the keys been arranged in order or by frequency of use.

Of course I wouldn't change my keyboard around if I could, but I suppose that's why America has yet to accept the Metric system....

Move it if you like, but get rid of the Caps Lock key and I will hunt you down and kill you. And you can forget about anyone who programs for a living ever buying your freak-keyboard laptop. There are scores of coding conventions in different programming languages that call for identifiers typed in all-caps (especially constants), and for the most part this is a good thing because it generally makes code more readable.

ConstanceTrout

@MinskyBA: I hear you brother!

Good work.

I know where to usually look for the escape key & delete key, but often they are undersized (especially the del key).

for accuracy and touch typing, this is definitely an intelligent move.

dcartist

I wonder what Lenovo will do wrong next.

hanswurst0815

@johnrhoward: Next time you're setting up models in excel and accidentally type a bunch of gibberish over your 8x nested if function with index-match, you'll know why people hit that esc key.

thegreatfratsby

@Priaptor: I have a Lenovo Thinkpad and an old IBM Thinkpad (for work). The keyboards are equally satisfying to use. The next best keyboard IMO after that is the one on my 15" PowerBook G4. The fact that they ditched it in favor of the iBook and MacBook Air keyboard has left me reluctant to upgrade even though my PowerBook is old.

@Kaiser-Machead: For me it's all about gestures. The actual pad itself is neither here nor there for me. Obviously the hardware/software goes hand in hand, but if I could use gestures on my Vostro (work lappy) I would be just as happy.

@cruzer555:

The macbook/pros keyboards are better at the beginning, but over time they start getting too clacky and loud. I had a thinkpad T41 and it stayed quiet yet still firm thoughout its whole life.

Jack Schuleman

@cruzer555:
What does software have to do with the keyboard??

cc82

@cruzer555: I have to disagree. Thinkpad keyboards are just so rugged and responsive. The Sony/Apple chicklet design is inferior in many ways no the least of which is wasted space.

Xeno

@cruzer555: Blasphemy!

Xeno

@SoaringDisbelief:

As much as I like my Macbook, My Thinkpad's keyboard/trackpad/nub setup is leaps and bounds better than anything else on the market.

LaneWinree

@Passa: Do you have the unibody or the original? I like my unibody better than the r50, t41p, t43p, and t60 that I have used extensively.

@SwatLax: It's pretty easy, when I switched from my HP to my MacBook Pro it took about a week to get it down and about a month to become fully used to it.

@cc82: They're absolutely NOT the gold standard! I have had many a Windows laptop, but in both hardware and software, my MacBook Pro beats all. Note, I have used a r51, t41p, t43p, and t60 and I still favor the Mac.

Dvorak FTW. After about 8 years, I just don't understand why more people haven't made the switch.

@Priaptor: My dad has a t41p AND a t43p but I like my macbook pro's keyboard better.

@UnderLoK: Shit, I thought the article was linked US via Ars... fail

@SwatLax: I use both every day and it can be annoying sometimes. I find the worst offender is text navigation. For example, in Windows, pressing CTRL+LEFT moves one word left, but ALT+LEFT does this on a Mac. In Windows, HOME and END go to the beginning of the line or end of the line respectively, while CMD+LEFT and CMD+RIGHT do this on Mac (sometimes, but not in all apps). I have remapped the HOME and END keys on my iMac, but my Macbook doesn't have these keys anyway (which is just stupid).

Oh and then there's the DELETE and the OTHER DELETE keys. That's just great UX engineering right there. And I really wish Apple would give me a damn proper delete key on the MacBook. It's annoying having to hit FN+DELETE.

Sometimes I think of switching back to Windows because of this stuff. Screwing with the keyboard is almost too much for me to handle, especially because I'm a programmer. I spend most of my time moving text around, and Apple makes it very difficult for me. But everything else abouts Macs is just so damn good that I just live with it.

rhoderickj

They should also make the "W" key bigger since I use it all the time when typing URLs..

GustavoSM

@UnderLoK: I'd say that, after using the Mac trackpad, just about anything else from any other vendor is a complete and total pain in the freaking ass to use. My cousin asked me to help him set up his new Dell Studio 15, and as I used it, I could only sigh on the inside on how dreadful that trackpad was, and was ever so glad that when I got home, I could just use the big glass panel on my MBP. PC trackpads are complete shit all around by comparison. The nipple, however, is a very good device, but it's something not many PC vendors do well. Dell used to use to include them on their Inspirons, and they were pretty poorly made. They'd get stuck in one direction and it was a pain in the ass.

Kaiser-Machead

@cc82: Thinkpad keyboards have a great feel, but I've gotta say, I am not a fan of the Fn/Ctrl key layout. IMO, Ctrl should ALWAYS be the bottom-left key-- I can't get used to it where it is.

[www.xbitlabs.com]

frostbite795

@d5280:

HHAAHA......SORRY, but I am an Autocadist myself and I only hit the ESC key maybe 1 out of 50 or 100 entries......

Area51Alien

THE ONE THING THIS ARTICLE DOESN'T TOUCH ON WHICH ARS DID IS THE FACT THAT CAPS LOCK NEEDS TO GTFO!!

@ghackett: You beat me to this post. Who gives a crap about the size of Del and Esc when there are fundamental issues like Ctrl being in the wrong f*cking place altogether.

TickleMeElmo

@JensRex: You have to contort your hand for ctrl+v? Don't you use your pinky+index finger?

@johnrhoward: I dunno, but I can assure you that if you're stuck using vi...

@SoaringDisbelief: Sorry I still think the MS Natural keyboard is the best "form factor" around. As far as studying Apple goes their keyboard is 90% looks and nothing fancy. Their track pad is no big deal either until you add gestures at which point it totally kicks ass.

Gestures is more than likely the #1 thing I like about my MB.

@Passa: The best thing I ever did to improve my typing skills (aside from IRC) was to go with a MS Natural keyboard as it forces you to use the correct hand for the correct side of the keyboard. Since that keyboard came out waaaaay back when my speed and accuracy has gone through the roof.

@cc82:
I think it has to do more with hand size, weight, etc. when seeing what keyboard is the "gold standard" for you personally. I also find the Mac keyboards much easier to use, and I've always thought the way the keys are shaped (with the little concave that makes it harder to hit it just on the edge) on ThinkPads made it harder for me to type.

drokcab

@johnrhoward:

Those of use who do REAL work on computers with REAL programming tools use ESC frequently.

Nobody does programming with mouse-driven MS-Word for text editing. Real programmers use VI, EMACS, and other very powerful text editors for programming, those tools make extensive use of ESC.

People who don't use or care about ESC should not mind when its in a good keyboard position for those of us who DO use it.

dnheller

@SwatLax: I'm not sure what the hell some of these people are talking about, but let me make it short and sweet.

Retrain yourself to use your thumb rather than your pinky to ctrl+whatever. Once you do that everything else falls into place. What S U C K S is using a windows keyboard on a Mac as you have to use the windows key (unless you rebind keys).

I started using computers with the last of the old TTY/Teletype style keyboards, which were great. They had the Control key in the correct place, i.e. where the Caps Lock key is now commonly found. The Caps Lock is rarely used, and Control is much more often used, yet now one has to twist one's arm and wrist to get the left pinky finger to hit Control. This is another legacy of IBM stupidity regarding keyboards.

Another example: The IBM keyboard PC keyboards were the first that had Caps Lock, Shift Lock and Num Lock indicator lights in the upper right of the keyboard. So you have to look in two places: one to both ascertain the state of the respective Lock function and then another to find the key to change it. A few keyboard makers put the indicator LEDs in the Lock keys themselves, but that must have been too expensive to make, because it's rare to find such good keyboards now. It might seem trivial, but from a human factors, ergonomics, and industrial engineering perspective, that level of detail is very important for efficiency and productivity.

dnheller

@craig_16:
Yea the ctrl-alt-del screen is annoying, usually I just want to go straight to the task manager. My company has it's own engineering/modeling software, often have to kill individual processes when we're working out bugs

cc82

The only talk I wanna hear about Lenovo and Keyboards is when they finally switch the F$%*ING Fn and Ctrl keys back to where they should be!

ghackett

@cc82: Yeah, I can imagine that getting a lot of use with any Vista user... I hate that "user friendly" screen that shows when I press ctrl+alt+del

I'm glad a manufacturer has the balls to start rethinking the layout. Touchscreens, voice control, mind sensors, all have some major downsides. Keyboards are going to be king for the rest of our lives. We've been using QWERTY, a 100+ year old dinosaur designed for typewriters, for computers for 30 too many years. I've used the Dvorak layout for 2 years now, and while my typing isn't fast, it's damn comfortable. We have generations that type better with their thumbs on phones-now is the time to start changing the damn layout!

@craig_16: that should have read "the home row or contort"

@SwatLax: I find the command key to be easier to use when touch typing as is can be pressed with your thumb rather than your pinkie. The pinkie is weak and to press control I either have to move away from the home or contort my hand into an uncomfortable claw. The thumb is strong and sits on the bottom row, so to reach command all I have to do is bend it in a little bit. I have Windows on my Mac as well and decided to make command act as control so that I didn't have to readjust every time I switched OS.

@SwatLax: I thought it was funny.

@TeriyakiChicken: I think it's a sort of hybrid, "trollboy", if you will.

psychiccheese

@johnrhoward:
Ctrl-Shift-Esc ...

cc82

it's making me want a lenovo more and more. I use autocad everyday, and the escape key probably 1 out of every 4 times. I'd love a bigger key, the one on the mac is so tiny.

d5280

@SoaringDisbelief:

Thinkpad keyboards are decidedly the best in the business when it comes to laptops. Red nipple ftw!

cc82

@Priaptor: Agreed. I have an IBM T43, and I love that keyboard. I bought a Thinkpad USB keyboard for my desktop PC a few months back, and while it's better than anything else I've used, it still doesn't compare.

@Hi, I'm God:
Dude Thinkpads are the gold standard of laptop keyboards.... I'm typing this from my (last years model) T400.

cc82

@SwatLax: I apologize, but I don't have a relentlessly positive comment. I do like my mbp, but god almighty do I hate the keyboard. It just... it sucks! None of the keys are in the right place relative to any other computer you may use, the need to use fn+backspace to delete annoys the bejesus out of me.

Oh, and please don't get me started on MS Office tools on a mac. Using powerpoint on a mac is like trying to play a video game on a buzz saw--it's messy, unpleasant, and the end result involves a lot of people yelling.

thegreatfratsby

Stop messing with the delete key! I use insert constantly, since I've used shift+insert for paste since as long as I can remember. When the delete key gets messed with, they usually move insert somewhere weird. I find when using shift+insert I don't have to contort my hand as much as with ctrl+v.

JensRex

@SwatLax: As long as your brain is still capable of neural plasticity (which, being human and all, I'm sure it is), you'll quickly grow accustomed to it. Don't worry.

What are people doing that they need to use the Esc key so often? I can't even remember the last time I used the Esc key.

@SoaringDisbelief:
Maybe some could study, well...not Apple keyboards, but Sony since they are the ones who designed it.
But not Lenovo. Thinkpad keyboards a lot better than anything Macbooks offer. Thinkpads as a whole seem to be designed most of all on pleseant typing experience, there's just no comparision with anything else. Typing on Macbooks is a just very clunky compared to Thinkpads, not just because of keyboards, but also other design choices Apple made.

AdrianWerner

While I agree with this, I think that most PC makers need to study Apple's computers, both for keyboards and trackpads. And while some will decry me as a fanboy, I know too many people, even PC users, who like Mac keyboards (and, of course, trackpads) better for feel, style, and ease of use.

About the "oversize" Escape key, though, while it sounds nice, when you think about it it's not as big of a deal as it could be. Think about where it's located. It's in the top left corner, only bordering two other key on most laptops. This means that when you want to hit it, you don't need to concentrate that much, because there is a very small chance that you will miss it, despite its size. Also, I know Apple would never adopt it as it would mess up their precious aesthetics.

SoaringDisbelief

Im typing this on a T400 and i find the keyboard quite acceptable, although I'd rather have it a bit more clicky and mechanical like the old IBMs. My keyboard, though, had no two-row ESC and Del keys. Delete is smallish, but the ESC is quite big anyhow and located in an easy to reach corner with a nice bevel around it. Can't really miss it ;-). All in all, a nice PC, despite my company's crapware (ahem, IT management software) on it.

garci66

@SwatLax: Like others have said, it's really easy to learn to use the Apple keyboards (I like them better because the key feel better and the spacing reduces missed keys), but it's a major pain to get accustomed to an Apple keyboard and then have to go back to another.

About the ctrl/command thing, I like the Apple "command" better because it's closer to the key that I use most often with modifiers (command -z,-c,-v,-f,-a, etc.), and it does actually make a difference in speed and comfort. However, when I go back to a windows keyboard, I always find myselft hitting alt instead.

SoaringDisbelief

The keyboard on my IBM R50 is incredible and one of the reasons I do all my work/typing on it rather than my desktop machine. I'm a pretty awful typist so the fact that I hit about 100WPM on this thing is awesome. I trust the T400 keyboard is therefore exceptional.

And on the VS Macbooks debate.. It's pretty obvious the Macbooks sport nice keyboards. I hate the spacing between the keys and their feedback on the Macbook Pro I have here, and since I only occasionally use it, I'm never used to the command key. Or the lack of pg up/down/home/end keys which I make frequent use of.

Passa

@Hi, I'm God: ^-- This comment confuses my "fanboy or troll?" radar...

TeriyakiChicken

@Dayv: Right-o. If you're moving to (almost) exclusively Apple keyboards, the switch takes a couple weeks and then you're golden. I actually find command + [key] is generally more comfortable than ctrl, especially with Adobe software.

If, though, you use Windows at work and a Mac at home, you'll never get used to it. You can switch command and ctrl in Leopard, though. Head over to the Keyboard & Mouse pref pane and select Modifier Keys and swap them.

I don't have any problems, and I use both on a daily basis.

@SwatLax: It's easy if you're mostly switching. If you spend half your time using one keyboard and half using the other, it's a constant struggle.

My only real complaints about the Apple laptop keyboard layout are that the arrow and esc keys are too small. Especially the arrows.

Dayv

@SwatLax: I have the same worries. My uncle uses his Macbook Pro primarily as a Windows laptop so it took a little time but he got used to it. I'm not sure about what would happen if you're using both OSes but I imagine, especially if you're adept at typing, that soon it will become 2nd nature and you won't even think about it but your fingers will adjust to whatever OS you have booted into.

Can anyone that has switched from a PC laptop to an Apple laptop reassure me that I can get used to the keyboard.

When I use a Macbook, it drives me nuts when I keep trying to hit Ctrl, only to find that the "open apple" key is in a different place. Or when I want to page down, and find that I need to use two keys in order to do this...

SwatLax

I hate different keyboards. Every time I got a new Windows Laptop with the 1000 different makers, the keyboard would always be a littleee bit off. Usually the shift key was different sizes. It took me weeks to figure it out. Now I'm on the MacBooks amazing keyboard. Gotta love Apple.

Trust me, the Lenovo's keyboard doesn't compare to IBM's of yesteryear. Making these two keys bigger still isn't bringing the incredible IBM T keyboard back, no matter how much you guys say different.

Priaptor