well, however it works out...I'm sure it would make for a bad day at the office...or at least an interesting one.

winmac

@Feigr: Couldn't they have killed him before Cloverfield?

DarthTader

can't the active defense system simply detect two simulatanous launches and disregard the first one?

I mean, this would be fairly easy to implement.
for example,
"if (time_of_2nd_launch - time_of_first_launch == RUSSIAN_DECOY_TIME)
disregard_1st_launch;
"

liq604

As Luka partially-correctly pointed out - the M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank has mount-points for reactive armor. The explosive panels are part of the "Urban Survival Kit" for urban warfare.

That said, I think that in the very near future, RPG's like this will be defeated by active defensive systems using sensors and lasers to damage or detonate incoming warheads (much like the Navy's Phalanx guns can shoot down incoming ship-to-ship missiles).

And no, I'm not a weapons geek - just well read (and used to be in the military once upon a time).

Kirkaiya

@Luka_Veliki: Yeah, but under the reactive armor is still the steel-encased depleted uranium armor, so I doubt one shot would kill the Abrams, but maybe 2 or three from the sides might.

DarthTader

So now active defenses just have to fire two anti-ballistic rockets for every perceived attack; approximately one-tenth of a second apart. Then the RPG will launch two decoys, and active defenses will fire three anti-ballistic rockets, etc. It's like the razor multi-blade wars.

All we need is a defense system that locates the source of the rocket and sends one of it's own there in less than a tenth of a second, thus eliminating the threat.

Wireless Joe

@Luka_Veliki: Sure, almost anywhere on a tank is less-well protected than its glacis plate. But tank designers know that as well as weapon designers :)

Kit Eaton

The russians are going to kill JJ Abrams? Star Trek fans rejoice!

Feigr

@EVEs_Mako: uhm... hyperbole much?

but since you're going to go that route... in the republican world, Everything is a tank, except tanks. those are giant tank-launching supertanks.

lpranal

reactive armour or not i would still love the weapon if it can destroy a M1 Abrams cause some people say everything for the perfect kill

TBM-Fan

ok, I think this could really be useful in human form too - I could have a little midget run into a room 2 seconds before I enter, and no one would focus any attention on me, allowing me to pass through undetected. I'm adding this to my ninja arsenal. plus, midgets are just funny.

SouthendXGF

good time to start working on deflector shields

aerospaceman

@William_III_of_Dastardshire: Nor his wife, his children or his parents...

William_III_of_Dastardshire

@EVEs_Mako: Oh where have the golden days gone, when man didn't have to fear that he must die from a long life.

William_III_of_Dastardshire

Abrams M1 have explosive armor on sides... so it is protected in cities.

That thing would probably kill abrams from the side.

Luka_Veliki

@timak:

It's a brilliant move actually, if you're selling weapons to both sides.

And as for the hats: you can make them as high as you want, but if they don't have a spike on top or horns on the sides, they'll never be maximum cool.

Serolf Divad

Man,

weapon nerds freak me out.

humblesound

So they are building weapons that defeat the defenses of their own tanks. I guess it saves their enemies the trouble.

What is the deal with the Russian officer hats? The bigger they are the higher the rank? Or is it like cars in this country, merely an extension?

timak

In the Obama world, we no longer need tanks.

EVEs_Mako

@DarthTader: It probably wouldn't harm the tank so much as the fleshy crew inside. Aren't RPGs designed to explode outside of the tank and drive a super heated copper projectile through the armor? Unless they pierced a vital mechanical component its probably more dangerous to crew.

jdbaile3

A deceptively simple idea, but wouldn't the concussion from the explosion of reactive armor destroying the decoy likely knock the real rocket off course?

wjousts

@SouthendXGF: Matt Roloff does not approve.

v0ice

this is pretty low tech and easily worked around by active armor manufacturers i would think

GreyHammer

This idea has been employed by Hamas for some time now against israeli tanks, I don't know the success ratios but the idea is to fire two RPGs to the same spot (duct tape ??) so the first one will open a hole in the reactive explosive armor (which israelis know and love so much) so the second one has a chance against the armor plates.

Personally I think you would need like 3-4 hitting the same spot to do some real damage but then that's a logistics nightmare : ))

Crescent

@Wireless Joe: i saw a weapon liek this on future weapons. it calculates the trajectory of the attack and responds with its own in kind. i forgot what it was called though. all automated and mounted on the rear of a vehicle.

GreyHammer

@lpranal: @EVEs_Mako: oh we'll need them more. yet they will no longer be there.

GreyHammer

Israel uses reactive armor on it's main battle tank, and has developed further than the U.S. an active defense system for it's tanks.

Russia is obviously hoping to sell its new anti tank weapon to Arab armies and Arab terrorists, all funded with almost unlimited oil money.

dnheller

I know we're not BFFs with Russia, but does anybody else find it a bit odd that they decided to nickname this weapon the "killer" of a U.S. military staple? That's not typically what I call "good relations." Imagine if we came up with some sort of air defense system and called it, say, the "MiG killer." The Russians would go ballistic.

karmaghost

@DarthTader:
3 shots? For what?
When the explosive armor explodes (first/fake round), next round would put a hole in remaining armor- and fry everyone inside. It is heated, highly directed and acelerated copper after all.

And it is not like you can aim shot at that tiny hole with next rpg round:).

So one shot with this ("double") baby would probably do.

Luka_Veliki

@Serolf Divad: It's a brilliant move actually, if you're selling weapons to both sides.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Sell your old tanks to your opponent and then blow them up real good.

twoeightnine

@jdbaile3: If it can't penetrate the outer armor, how would it harm the fleshy bits inside? As to how an RPG is designed, I'm not sure, you description sounds like a HEAT round; you could very well be correct. I just design soles and footwear for the military, not weapon systems.

DarthTader

Metal Storm loaded with rpg rounds. Empty a tube. Repeat as required.

PastorDoodah

@Luka_Veliki: I was unaware rpg used the "molten copper" rounds? You sure about that? I thought those were only found in tank rounds.

Kharnellius

@karmaghost:
They're just appealing to their target market, which is, everyone but US. It's effective against, namely, US.

YourTechSupport

its still no javelin....... plus with the slat armor the army is installing on most of the vehicles in iraq renders this ineffective.

bbnick

@liq604: Then all they'd have to do is switch it up every once in a while.

Null42

Too late for the Russians. We're already developing laser-based defenses.

ripfire

@v0ice:
Bush Doctrine

YourTechSupport

Problem with reactive armour is its not that popular with the squaddies and in built up reas they are you defence aginst hand held rpg.

And id like to see this work against a fast moving target where the reactive plates have moved on and so a second plate would fire.

Clasicly your ment to use Bazookas/pazerfausts in pairs of idealy threes first two fire with a your mor experianced crew held back

Mouser_UK

@lpranal: Mako's right, we don't need tanks. The Messiah will save us through peace, love, Positive Liberties, and Redistribution of Wealth!

But, seriously, show me where Republicans have made a Messiah out of a politician--and Regan doesn't count. Regan was a politician and we all know that; Obama's a God to the left.

katch-22

(see chobham armour)

Z

If the armour is so good on these tanks which would require "2 or 3" shots in the same place then why fit the damn things with reactive armour as well!

So it's obvious that in urban environments with close up aggressor's there is a need to supplement your existing armour with something or else you get fried. (like reactive plates which are kinda like outward pointing landmines) So, this would overcome those and jizz up the carbon units. You dont always need a penetration, a nice big whack which shocks loose some internal components makes a good impression of a blender for those inside. You dont want to be sitting inside a metal box when bits of your radio and other gear starts flying off the walls.

I'd like to think that the russians actually built this, tested it proved it and put it into production because it actually works. Bet they wished they had read gizmodo comments first otherwise..

Z

@Kharnellius: Rpg use at least two types of warheads: one normal, and "armorpiercing" one (with copper).

You can not expect to destroy even "normal" armored vechicle with "normal warheads". It is just blast and fire.

Luka_Veliki

Russia is no joke. These guys are on the move toward the western world. They've sold Russian helicopters to Venezuela. They are helping Venezuela build a nuclear reactor. They are doing naval exercises of the coast of Venezuela. They are drilling for oil of the Gulf of Mexico. AND they are putting a base in Venezuela. All of this is being done because our military is way over extended and we've elected a President with absolutely no experience.

Obama has his work cut out for him. That's for damn sure.

yoshi

With hats like those, who needs anti tank weapons?

SirDrinksalot

Knowing Russia it won't take long before these things are employed against American (& ally) tanks and personel transport viecles in the middle east.

I wonder how long before videos of Hamas fighers blowing up Israeli tanks (can't recall what they were called, was hebrean for Horse Chariot) with these? Propably less than a year...

L_A_G

@undefined: @jdickson87: None of us "civilized" nations are innocent of this arms market fiasco, unfortunately.

Loonie

@karmaghost:
They already have (gone ballistic). lmao

Gvtv44

@Kharnellius: The "Molten Copper" rounds are HEAT rounds. And yes, even things as old as the RPG-7 uses HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank).

[en.wikipedia.org]

And since RPG's are expressly designed to destroy tanks and armor, it makes sense.

But back to this thing- that's a neat trick to defeat the reactive armor. Sad we need to keep coming up with better and better ways to kill each other, though. Next step- reactive armor with a higher threshold for detonation?

But in any case, this seems like a bad idea, given the history that russion weapons have for hitting the arms trade market in very large numbers. If history is any indication, this will come back to bite them in the ass too.

jdickson87

@jumpo64:

Also, I'm probably never going to be in an Abrams tank......

jumpo64

It's not like these RPG's are ever REALLY going to come into contact with an Abrams anyway. Russians won't sell these to the middle east because they would be too easy to trace back with them being so new.

And, since full scale war with the Russians means The End of the World. I'm not too worried.

jumpo64

@Luka_Veliki: As far as I am aware, the steel-encased depleted uranium armor on the M1A1 was designed and tested to stop HEAT rounds from penetrating it.
"M1A2 tanks uniformly incorporate depleted uranium armor, and all M1A1 tanks in active service have been upgraded to this standard as well, the armor thickness is believed to be equivalent to 24 inches (610 mm) of RHA. The strength of the armor is estimated to be about the same as similar western, contemporary main battle tanks such as the Leopard 2. In the Persian Gulf War, Abrams tanks survived multiple hits at relatively close ranges from Iraqi T-72s and ATGMs. M829A1 "Silver Bullet" APFSDS rounds from other M1A1 Abrams were unable to penetrate the front and side armor (even at close ranges) in friendly fire incidents as well as an incident in which another Abrams tried to destroy an Abrams that got stuck in mud and had to be abandoned.[6]
"

DarthTader

We'll have it thwarted within a few months, methinks :^)

banmojo

@Luka_Veliki: In my previous post, you have picture of Abrams "Tank Urban Survival Kit" that incorporate active armor on the sides.
American army bought 505 of these "completes" for Abrams.

So Abrams has active armor. And that rusian rpg will penetrate it from the side(if it realy work).

Luka_Veliki

@DarthTader:
Maybe with normal explosives; with armor piercing (that destroy the crew(and istruments), not whole tank!), and with "Kinetic energy penetrator" ("arrow"), tanks do not stand a chance from sides.

[upload.wikimedia.org]

Luka_Veliki

Actually the Abrams M1a did not have reactive armor but they were modified, the Abrams M1b is equipped with as a standard feature as both models were venerable to normal RPG in certain areas.

Branedy

It's not suppose to be an Abrams killer. The Israeli tanks (and a lot of smaller nations) use reactive armour. The Russians are trying to pump up there sales in more hostile markets where they know their products will be bought and used regularly, rather than stockpiling around waiting for a possible war.

BambalinaLulu

@Loonie: Perhaps the definition of 'civilized' should be changed to 'an organized method for building a bigger and better way to annihilate other civilized people before they do the same to us'. :P

yougottabekidding

Yeah, but can it kill the Grimace?

Git Em SteveDave loves this guy->★

@Crescent: Not sure about in an anti-tank role, but in the Lebanon fiasco Hezbollah would fire two thermobaric warheads at infantry targets. First one would blow a hole in what was being used for cover, the second would take out the troops.

I'm surprised that no one is working on an RPG that is fired over the target in order to trigger the shaped charge against the weaker top armor.

daveNYC

@DarthTader: Yes, this is very true, the rolled steel actually caused the round to bounce off with no affect, they flew that particular tank back home to study and that was before the very last incarnation of the Abrams.

This AT weapon was designed for their own tanks and weapons sales worldwide.

Anti-armor specialist
Infantry

Kevin

@SouthendXGF:

+ Watch video

Git Em SteveDave loves this guy->★

@wjousts: Here's one. What if the tank is clicking along at 60mph??

Kevin

@GreyHammer: Well since reactive armor blows up pretty intensely showering the trajectory with shrapnel, the second round would still have to make it through that flying steel I guess.

And the anti-armor missile missile is just a flying heat seeking claymore

Kevin

@v0ice: Matt Roloff is a dwarf. I was referring to midgets, besides, he's so short his opinion only counts for half.

SouthendXGF

@DarthTader: I bet your ears would ring like hell after the first one though.

GONG..."What the F!"

Reminds me of a Marine friend in Iraq.

Walking to chow one day in his shorts and heard the whistle of an incoming mortar shell.

Had just enough time to say "Oh Shi!..." then...Plink!.

The MotherFR was a dud, bounced off a humvee about 5 meters away.

The night he related that story, we did a SHIT TON of drinking.

jchasse

@timak: I've partied with more than a few Russians in my life. You can trust me when I say that a Russian's worst enemy is other Russians.

jchasse

@katch-22:
And a dick to the right.

JEmlay

There is already a type of armor to defeat to defeat shaped charge penetration rounds: slat/bar/cage armor.
This ia already used on the Stryker. It works by destroying the projectile a safe distance from the vehicle so that it's energy can not be concentrated enough to penetrate.

[www.defenseindustrydaily.com]

shoeless

@shoeless: But wouldn't the first round deform/destroy the "cage", leaving an open door for the following projectile?

Git Em SteveDave loves this guy->★

@humblesound: Dude same here, I used to be fascinated with weaponry and stuff like that, until I realized their only purpose is to kill people...

I play Counter-Strike, I could never imagine a real life version of that... killing people left and right in the name of patriotism... lol

SJRNWT

While we're about to cancel Orion mission here in US. Great.

vgart

@timak:

Umm, don't be ignorant about the hats. Every nation have their own uniform. At least Russian military has a long history for it.

vgart

Am I the only one who noticed that the nice news lady was using an Apple Macbook?

Silver_Back

"The RPG then has a 105-mm tandem warhead that is apparently capable of penetrating 650mm of steel armor, and can defeat reactive explosive armor too, earning it the "Abrams killer" label."

funny, but the Abrams is not made with just steel armor - so, good luck with that!

Jhwk

You can't take the russian military too seriously when they are wearing such silly hats.
They look like green sombreros with the brim blown out from too much wind!

Yeah.. that's it!... They are Mexican commandos and that one huge burrito launcher!

aec007

@twoeightnine: You who else has Russian tanks with reactive armor?

- Georgia
- Ukraine
- Chechnya
- etc., etc.

Now *why* would Russia need a weapon to defeat reactive armor? Hmmm...

Ridgerunner

@EVEs_Mako: The Soldiers and Marines will all be riding Unicorns firing rainbows from peace pandas. So no kind of out dated Russian rocket will stand up to that.

I think were on the M1 A3 anyway and from my experience tanks, usually traveling in packs of 5, do just sit and get fired at. Nor do all the support crew, infantry, and various other grand war machines and trained fighters that are accompanying them.

Some of the Depleted Uranium rounds we used in Africa could punch a hole through any type of armor we encountered but not the M1. They should be afraid, very afraid.

One more thing check out a Fléchette Round. Now that's fun for the whole family

Hiroak

@DarthTader: On a side note, aren't the DU rounds still slightly radioactive?

USB_Humping_Dog

@Hiroak:
Best story I ever heard about the M1 was that in either Desert Shield or Desert Storm one of our Abrams got disabled, and when the crew called in to request field repairs, they were told that it would take too long and that they should scuttle the tank. That's supposed to be accomplished by blowing the ammo bay, but when they did that, they discovered that the Abrams ammo bay is designed to blow outwards (so as to protect all the squishy meaty bits inside should something go _WRONG_). A little while later, a repair crew showed up and had the thing running again in no time.

The easiest way to take out an Abrams is probably to "turtle" it, and even that won't really destroy it.

Purple Dave

The U.S. Army has had reactive armor-killing missiles since the TOW II, dating back decades. I was a TOW gunner from 1990-1993. The TOW II has since been phased out, but back in the day, they were some badass muthas with a maximum effective range of over 5 km. with excellent precision.

Barion

@Mouser_UK:

Do you realize how fast it would have to be moving for that to happen?

ferrumlancea

first of all, the video is of the RPG 32 "hashim" developed in conjunction with the Jordanian government, and is completely different from the RPG 30.
Second, a tandem warhead and a decoy rocket are 2 different things. The decoy is used against active defense systems, the tandem warhead defeats reactive armor (also 2 different things).
Third, the RPG 29 has already been shown to literally slice through Challenger 2 armour (which is more reinforced than even that of the Abrams), so all the RPG 30 really is would be an RPG 29 with a decoy warhead launcher strapped on to defeat active defense systems.

Its the RPG 32 thats cutting edge, as it is more powerful, more mobile, and highly modular than any other comparable system currently in development. And did i mention its dirt cheap?

ferrumlancea

@Git Em SteveDave loves this guy->★: It's hard to say without actually seeing the design, but I kinda doubt it. Anything left in the path of the secondary projectile before it hits the actual target should be enough to disrupt the concentration of energy by the shaped charge.

shoeless

@YourTechSupport:

And Great Britain, the supreme anti-soviets,anti-nazis....1st to declare war on the axis ?

NYJATT911