Isn't the video card and the RAM the real factor in running Aero? Also, I have a hard time believing that running Aero is the real decision making factor that drove what few people went out to buy Vista. The OS looks really cool even without Aero running. In effect, Aero just makes the interface have some transparency. To create that transparency takes a lot of video memory and ram. You can get the whole Vista experience, minus the transparency even on a fairly low level processor. I have Vista 32 Business on my 3 year old machine, not running Aero and it's fine.
I think it's common knowledge that if you have a badass machine or at least descent, Vista is great, if you don't run XP.

In all honesty, do you think that Apple and/or anyone else doesn't have discussions with the people that make the hardware of which their software run such as Intel?

vista64guy

$100 says that jim gets fired for his beliefs...

sqeakytoy of the apocalypse

To think they would have cared more for the consumer when releasing a new OS. Bastards

RikudouSennin

@detraya: For crap like this, I hope they do. Intel in the dust for once? Like I care. Although I would have never fallen for this, it pisses me off that other consumers were short-changed.

aceofcakes

wow, someones going to get sued out the ass.

detraya

I was upset when Vista came out and the aero subsystem couldn't run on even the newer machines I built for customers without a higher end video card. I'm even a little upset I can't all the aero features on my 5500FX. Don't even get me started on how Vista performs with games running on top of aero...

p75hmsa

@vista64guy:

Who is arguing that others don't have "discussions"? That's not the point at all. There were lots of people who bought a Vista Capable machine that were not able to run the advertised features of Vista - glass, 3D flip, etc.

dXXXXX

@vista64guy:
The Intel 915 Chipset is the main chipset for those AIO motherboards you see in lower end store bought machines. The video chipset is included in the 915. It uses the system memory for video memory. Even without running aero in vista, it still requires a hefty amount of video memory just for the way everything is designed.

p75hmsa

@p75hmsa: I have to dissagree with your Vista evaluation. I build systems that run the gambit of performance levels. With a dedicated 256 MB video card and 2 gigs of ram all the features run flawlessly. I know that because my laptop has those exact features and Vista does run flawlessly while I'm using any of the Adobe suite or even doing some moderate Video editing.

I'm a gamer, not professional but I take it seriously. I am on a Vista 64 machine now and Vista is WWAAAAYYYY better for running games. Vista reallocates all of your ram from your previous task, to your current one. So, the games get the full attention of your components and run way faster. I play Crysis, Warhammer, Battlefield 2, 2142, Bioshock and all at full resolution and I get 50 frames per second and sometimes higher which is great considering the human eye can only detect 30. When I'm playing multi-player I'm always the first to enter a zone and I can keep fighting when my friends are lagged out. I'm saying that my oppinion greatly differs and I'm coming from the background of someone who builds machines, uses Vista 64 and games every week.

My machine cost like $620 to build.
Intel Core 2 Duo E8300 2.83ghz
4GB Ram
Vista 64 Business
Nvidia 8600GT 1 GB dedicated card (cost me like $74)
Gigabyte PCI express motherboard with 6 PCI slots, 1 PCIE
et cetera et cetera.

I think people are so used to hearing and passing on the BS Vista rumors that they begin to imagine they have had issues themselves to fit-in or something, when in reality most have never touched the OS.

vista64guy

@sqeakytoy of the apocalypse:

You can't fire someone who's already quit.

[en.wikipedia.org]

dagamer34

Aero is just 1 part of the equation. Let's not forget the underlying issues of default services and host of other functions (arguable usefulness) that has been the bane of most XP users looking to upgrade. Added chugs of top of the bloat...???

Well that's just besides the point really and I'm putting this 1 out as a Win XP user on a limb here. First off, look at Mac's OSX and tell me if that thing's not running anything that Aero has been trying to match for years with far, far lower sys specs. Look at older gen Macbooks. Those runs fine even with current versions. Which means whatever it is that Apple got cooking with Intel, they got it right.

My point is...The older Macbooks with integrated Intel graphics can do all those snazzy and flashy OSX visual extravaganzas nary a hiccup. It's a hard call to say the same thing about Vista Ultimate users with older Centrinos.

In this case, both behemoths of respective hardware and software sides had decided to cut corners where they shouldn't have. I have long questioned why or how is that CLI-annoying Linux or Ubuntu can in fact function and looks great on early 90s machines (late 80s even) with little to no billions at their disposal for R&D and etc shit. Something that's alien to both MS and Intel...

On 1 end we have 1 idiot who should have put out Vista as Windows 7 upcoming complete with proper engineering to suit lower ended machines, while on the other we have an outfit trying to pass off their Centrino platform but with macho insecurities of wanting the latest,greatest and snazziest looking mainstream OS even if they have to cheat on specs.

Intel were just pure lucky when they finally clinched the Apple deal. The OSX were written to perform with better hardware efficiencies already, without having the need for them to muck about.

Suomynona.Eno

... and you can accomplish the same tasks with or without Aero.

vista64guy

@dXXXXX: Just to correct you a bit. People bought machines that had Vista on them. They had choices when they purchased of buying one machine for say $399 or one for say $899. Does anyone in their right mind think that the two machines will be able to perform ANYTHING to the same performance level? That is assanine. They bought the $399 POS because it would accomplish the same "tasks".

Seriously, people are not as stupid as you seem to think.

vista64guy

I'm getting a stong feeling of déjà vu. Hasn't this been known already for a while?

andyo

@vista64guy:

Dude not everyone is computer savvy, they need a computer that just freaking works without having to tweak it. Thats why apple is gaining market share like crazy

iAirmanshirk69

@vista64guy: Actually, I know quite a few people who went for the $400 machine instead of the $900 one because it said it was Vista Capable, and they thought they'd get all the features I was playing with on my laptop. I quite enjoy using Aero myself, and my laptop is powerful enough to support it.
Now of course, since I know it needs the extra power, I could have told them it was going to be bad on the cheap machine, had they said something about it before they paid for it...

People may not be as stupid as he thinks, but they are that misinformed.

The Amazing Ant

Yeah thanks a lot Microsoft. Spent 1,200 dollars on a computer that couldn't even run vista without lag. Bullshit. Im going Mac as soon as i can, this is seriously bad on your part Microsoft, how can we trust you now? Well, at least Apple ships their computers ready to run their OS. bye Microsoft

iAirmanshirk69

@vista64guy: Not in the same way.
I was going to write a serious response to that, but you nickname and image thing persuade me not to feed the fanboys.

Macdelaney

@detraya: This IS the result of a lawsuit. That's why we know about it.

@aceofcakes: Intel will not be "in the dust." Microsoft is the one getting sued and they approved the 915 chipset as "Vista capable." Intel whines, gets Microsoft to screw the consumers on Intel's behalf, and Microsoft gets sued while Intel makes $$$. Smart and evil move by Intel, dumb and dumber move by Microsoft. Again.

AJ_Syrinx

@vista64guy:
The average consumer has no idea how to enable/disable key OS features like Aero, much less how to reinstall from Vista back to XP.

The reality is Vista Capable marketing WAS misleading and it screwed over a lot of consumers. So F*@k MS and Intel.

Vagabum

@dagamer34: Does that mean I can have the $100?

The Amazing Ant

@yomachaser:

Not just people with cheap machines is what I meant to say.

yomachaser

@vista64guy:

I bought a $750 Dell that was Vista ready and it can't do Aero Glass so it's not people with cheap machines that got screwed over.

If they say one thing in the product description and the adverts and it can't really do it that's bait and switch.

yomachaser

@iAirmanshirk69: You spent $1200 dollars on a machine that cant run all vista features? Did you buy this machine 5 years ago? If not, you got screwed royally by the guy in the store..

I spent £550 (that's about $1000 give or take - more like $800 at the min a believe) on an Asus G1S LAPTOP that runs vista nice and breezy. And that was in the UK, where everything is more expensive.

Cheddies

@andyo: yes, you are quite right -- see this article from February: [blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com]

spundot

@vista64guy: You run Crysis at full resolution and get 50fps with that machine? Really?

[www.tomshardware.com] (test machine)

[www.tomshardware.com] (9800GX2 results)

What resolution might that be, 640x480 perhaps? And what's that? You think your graphics card or processor makes you 'load into a zone' faster in multiplayer? Never occured to you that your internet connection and ping might have something to do with it?

One last thing. The human eye is not digital. It does not see "frames". Instead, the eye collects data (light detection, pattern detection etc.) which when combined is percieved as an image, and this is all fed to the brain continuously. Furthermore, it can discern the "smoothness" of video/games/etc at a rate of 150-200 frames per second.

Sorry, but your arguements are redundant. While I don't advocate senseless Vista bashing, I've found my Vista rig (Q6700 2.6Ghz, 8600GT 512MB, 3G RAM) to be slower transfering files to and from USB than my XP rig. It also has minor glitches here and there (i.e. double click .jpeg image and it takes almost a minute to load, almost lost my user profile etc.).

Runs games fine. However, since Vista isn't installed on the same rig as XP, I can't compare performance (XP rig has way lower specs). Bottom line though, it's been a rough experience with Longhorn, where XP's been smooth sailing. Millions of people, Microsoft included, will tell you the same.

kazemizuhi

@iAirmanshirk69: You spent $1,200 on a computer that couldn't run Vista? Maybe you should not only kiss Microsoft goodbye but technology as well. How can you spend $1,200 and not run Vista. Please post your system Make/model and/or parts with pricing. I'm calling your out Apple Fanboy.

vista64guy

@Digitallysick:

i switched my originally 399$ acer laptop (discounted to 75$ because it came with no battery and had some scratches) to hackintosh, then ubuntu.

yay celeron 1.8ghz + 512 ram!

endless

@iAirmanshirk69: I've got a laptop that cost $450 in 2006, and it runs Aero (and every other Vista feature) just fine. It came with 512MB of RAM and I upped that to 2GB when I upgraded it to Vista Business, but that was a small price to pay.

Or, in other words: If you spent $1200 on a machine in the last 3 years and it can't run Vista well, you got ripped off. Or you need to drop $20 on some RAM.

FuturePastNow

I feel sad for those people that bought $400.00 emachines and dells with vista, it hardly even runs. Vita on a celeron with 512mb of ram = garbage

Digitallysick

@Macdelaney: I use this icon and screen name because I'm tired of being told that Vista isn't good by lamos that clearly haven't used it, such as yourself. I'm not a fanboy but have enough of a sack to defend a good product.

vista64guy

@yomachaser:

$750 is a cheap machine......

GrantH

I'm not surprised TBH.

KLanD

I don't feel bad.

It's just like everything else. If you go into a situation blind, sometimes it doesn't turn out well. Everyone knows someone who is good with computers. Perhaps give them a call before you spend a paycheck or 3 on something?

@ the guy that runs Crysis at 50FPS: The new core i7 965 with a gtx 280 and 6GB of DDR3 ram runs it at 42FPS at 1680x1050. And the i7s aren't even out yet. So... congratulations on having a computer from the future.

Decaye

Let's re-word this slightly. Microsoft lowered it's requirements so that it could claim the it's bloated Vista OS could run on something (anything) being produced that an end-user could buy.

klamerus

@vista64guy:

Hey i was just a normal guy, called up dell a year and a half ago and said i wanted a computer. I said i need it for internet and gaming use. So i paid 1,200 dollars for a dimension e520 1gb ram, 32-bit, Intel core 2 CPU. I knew nothing about computers at that point in my life, but i asked the sales lady: "should i get XP or vista? because i heard they were having problems with vista" She told me vista was the best choice. So i got it and loved it, i thought wow this interface is so cool. So for a good year i ignored the lag, slow programs, inability to run more than 2 programs at a time, and slow productivity all around. And at that time i was so against mac computers it was crazy. Then i started hitting up some blog sites and realized I'm not the only one that Microsoft effed over. So again, its not my opinion that vista is a failure, because its a fact to those of us who have to live with it. Sure if your running with 4gb ram, vista is great. But most comps at the time of release only came with 1. Anyway, i was whatever about it, then my uncle came to visit (Works I.T. For the U.S. Air Force) and bought me an extra gb ram. Much better now. But right when i was thinking i might stick with MS, he pointed me to this video here and immediately im wondering why we arent all using macs. Well thats my conversion story. I think the vidos along with the fact that Snow leopard is going to bury windows 7 is enough to make anyone switch.

iAirmanshirk69

Typical Microsoft blaming their number one hardware partner for Vista's failure. Add this excuse to the others, Customers believing in bad press, 3rd party bloatware, Lazy peripheral driver engineers.

We all know where the problem lies... Microsoft isn't fooling anybody. Why customers, partners, retailers and software companies continue to work with Microsoft is beyond me.

bobborries

Does anyone even care? Vista is still a resource hog 2 years later. That's what M$ gets for trying to make an OS that every sucker can buy even though it won't really work worth a shit.

duffyanneal killed WALL-E

@dXXXXX:

Most anti-apple arguments dont make sense anyway, i just chose to ignore them and go for the better OS haha

iAirmanshirk69

@iAirmanshirk69:

According to vista64guy, it's your fault for not being in the technology industry and being able to differentiate the specs.

But "normal" people can just go to an Apple store where most of the time, they are treated like normal human beings and things are explained in ways that make sense.

dXXXXX

@vista64guy:

Apparently that "sack" isn't big enough to have the integrity to admit when your company mislead a lot of consumers (and just got caught).

dXXXXX

@vista64guy:

"Does anyone in their right mind think that the two machines will be able to perform ANYTHING to the same performance level?"

Microsoft ADVERTISED Win Vista with 3D flip and Aero on TV, Gates showed it off at the conference - Aero features were everywhere Vista advertising was (it had to be, it was one of the only differentiated features between Vista an XP). Then consumers walked in to a retail store, saw a "Vista Capable" sticker on the machine and bought based on the marketing.

Do you seriously think the average consumer is going to crack open the specs and research a specific type of driver? That's ignorant.

Microsoft knew this - they lied, pure and simple, they tried to play fast and loose with semantics, and they lost. And now they are getting sued for it.

dXXXXX

i have no idea how i can double check if aero is running

but a laptop with an ati x700 1.73Ghz Dothan P4 and 2 GB RAM gives me transparent windows

TBM-Fan

My HP with AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ at 3.0Ghz and 3gb of RAM and an 8800 GT runs Vista just fine, but for what I want in a computer, Vista absolutely sucks. I love XP over Vista. I run XP on my Macbook Pro using Boot Camp and VWWare when I'm in class. I like Mac and Windows about the same, and both have strengths and weaknesses. Both companies screw the customer over one way or another, it's just the way the world works, and Microsoft got caught. Apple screws us over with really expensive computers and retarded file management in Finder as compared to the way Microsoft does it in Windows, at least from my experience.

bagellord

Again. I'm a PC but not Vista!

beakerbreak

SSDD, but who cares. They already promised not to do this with Windows 7, and that will be able to run those cheap and tiny netbooks that have absolute crap for harware. Oh, and it will be secure, bugles, and it will have support for cool Minority report multi arm waving interface and it comes with a free MS Live Pony.

Bloodboiler

@AJ_Syrinx: MS didn't have to certify that chipset as Vista Capable. They could've just dropped the plan to start the Vista Capable marketing campaign three months early.

Hyman Decent

@Hyman Decent: Of course Microsoft didn't have to, but they did and now it's their a$$.

AJ_Syrinx

@AJ_Syrinx: I was addressing your criticism of Intel.

Hyman Decent

I am a PC well actually a POC , a piece of crap

ichi1

@dXXXXX: So it's Microsoft's fault that a dell sales person is a dumbshit?

It's also microsofts fault that I bought $299 speakers from the back of a van, because it had MSRP $1000 on the box.

AlanR

What part of the Intel/Microsoft tie-in do you people pretend you do not understand? Intel has designed their chip technology to maximize the software that Microsoft created, and Microsoft wrote software to take full advantage of Intel's technology. THAT was what MADE the personal computer literally and literally RUN our economy when every thing else was going to Hell in a hand basket. How soon we forget, that what they did for U.S. was to provide U.S. with something that others could not copy or duplicate - uniquely American when we disparately needed it. Not to worry though... the housing economy will save U.S. until Wintel can do it for U.S. again.

MargaretHecteyes

Every time they release an excellent OS, they subsequently release a dead dog. This has been true going a long way back; ME after 98, DOS 4 after 3. So I rather expected them to come up with a real dog after XP. The problem is the way they try to force customers to buy the latest and greatest by shutting down customer support and eventually shutting down updates. IMO, that's the real tragedy. After spending a billion dollars on a pig, they should accept the fact that it's a pig and quit putting lipstick on it and calling it something else. But more importanly, they need to quit armtwisting people into buying a pig. I'll wait for the next OS after Vista before upgrading my OS.

UmbertoDadgum

I carefully read the pdf and it mentions that Intel could have lost billionS if it had not been allowed to market 915 as Vista Capable. This means that nVidia, ATI and AMD would have got that money. With that extra funding we could see 45nm AMD chips earlier.

Xentrax