@baltwade:
I side with you on this one.
Microsoft has pretty much a set parameters for a hardware model.
With Vista came the Vista driver model to END all drivers issues. To that extent it has worked perfectly. If you do not write the driver correctly, you cant's use it.

In XP one driver from hardware manufacturer "A" could over write the driver from manufacturer "B" by modifying a dll file.
That option is GONE in Vista. You either code right or you are out.
Which prompted the lack of drivers in Vista's begining.

But in all honesty, it depends on who's hardware you are talking about.
GOOD, reputable hardware manufacturers always support their products correctly. El-Cheapo-Hardware Co. on the other hand....
You get the picture.

With good 3rd party hardware you have 1000's of choices Apple fans had never enjoyed.
In 20 + years I had really never had bad driver issues.
You just need to use good hardware.... that's all.

ie: My Vista PC at home is over 7 years old!!!! No hardware, No driver issues... everything works fine. Why? ....Good hardware.

aec007

@mac_kix_windoze: You make friends with some nerdy guy in college, and protect him from other jocks.

Kaiser-Machead

@snitch: I believe Vista has out sold OS-X something like 10 to 1. So if Vista is a failure what is OS-X?

baltwade

@CommodorePerry: Apple always has competition, just as any other vendor does, but the difference is that other vendors don't produce an operating system integrated with their hardware. All they have to do is make their hardware work with someone else's product, and simply get OEM licensing to distribute it on their machines.

But you're right, an integrated Microsoft PC would be more expensive, and right up there with the likes of Apple, because Microsoft would now be spending to design/produce their own computers, as well as have people code the OS for it.

Kaiser-Machead

Jeez, how does such a dumb f**k get to run a company like Microsoft?

mac_kix_windoze

Apple must be doing something right with their iPhone sales.

imTheKing

Wouldn't you want that? no... I simply want an OS that stands on its own and doesn't have issues with itself, file transfers need to be fast, interface to be user friendly but customizable, load times need to be swift, non necessary options should be off by default.

lilaliendog

Isn't the thing that keeps Windows based computing cheaper than Apple based computing the fact that there is competition and the hardware is reasonably open-ended?

If they closed their Windows, the days of the $700 budget laptop would go away, and you'd start to see everything drift towards the $1100 macbook range...at least.

Or am I way off base here?

CommodorePerry

@EVEs_Mako: You are.

burnblue

I see Apple still pays for Gizmodo's bills, pshh

Fused7

Eh, they're in too far to simply pull out and put together their own hardware solution for PC's anyway. The amount of money they'd have to invest would make investors balk, since they'd then be competing with their OEM licensees, who don't even have to worry about coding the OS, simply making drivers to integrate them with. I don't believe Microsoft would have the ability to have its cake and eat it too in this regard. They'd either have to close Windows up into their own PC, or leave it as it is. A PC produced by Microsoft would probably be just as expensive as any comparable Mac system, unless Microsoft thinks that it can handle the lower profit margin devices.

Kaiser-Machead

@baltwade: Yeah, dude, I love macs and will only do work on them, but the idea of microsoft rocking the same strategy is INSANE.

PC's are MEANT to be open and totally customizable. If you take that away, whats the point? Of course practically, here is no company that can mass manufacture every computer in the world to exact specifications so its a moot point. Nice avatar by the way.

ALT

M$ is just mad because it wants to put a start menu on the iphone ;)

beekerstudios

I mean who would know better than money boy? just think about it, Vista is such a huge success, Zune sales are bigger than ever with total sales under 2 million in 2 years, and the company has spent more money repairing xbox 360 than what they have made on it, is he forgetting that Apple sells 10+ million ipods on a bad quarter alone using their methods, you can't take monkey boy to seriously because remember what he said before the iphone was release, and 10 million iphone after he still got the balls to talk about it. He even had the balls to throw Nokia and Rim and saying that they were also about to fail,lol.

snitch

@PlayerX: I don't use internet abbreviations on a regular basis but...ahem..."OMFG"! Exactly what I was thinking when I saw that set of pictures!

Mr. Boyle, you are missed.

Lupus_Yonderboy

@ripfire: AT&T

Jrsy is the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude

I personally prefer there be competition in the hardware market. Competition promotes inovation. It would be an injustice to see microsoft go the way of apple.

I am not personally fond of...well anything related to apple, but i dont intend the following as a slam against them; Apple does not further hardware advances. They use intel boards, processors, select amount of video cards. The products that go into their machines were developed for their competition.

Many enthusiast items push the boundaries in terms of performance and drive prices of previous gen items down as the tech progresses.

If Microsoft(regardless your opinion of their products) went the way of apple, hardware would stagnate, prices would rise, and tech advances would slow.

jackbling

@PlayerX: I always see him looking more like Uncle Fester.

Jrsy is the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude

@PlayerX: Grrrrmmmmmmmmraawwwwmmmmmm.....I mean yes

Kaiser-Machead

Ballmer continually makes silly comments "traditional print media will be dead in 10 years" OK what premise did you base that statement on Ballmer? "Apple does things wrong"--- once again where did you come up with that because as far as I can see Windows Vista has been a complete failure whereas everything Apple touches seems to turn to gold as evidenced by their ever increasing PC market share and of course their iPhone/iPod.

Hey Bill launch this guy.

jpitsch

The reason why PC's are always alot faster and cheaper is because there is a huge and healty compition between all the component developers. Just look at AMD and Intel or Radeon and Nvidia

That would kinda disapear i think

Townie

Think about the possibility of a Microsoft PC. . . Wouldn't you want that?

baltwade

Caption Contest?

[cache.gawker.com]

EVEs_Mako

If Microsoft do decide to create their own phones, the question should be: who will be the wireless provider?

ripfire

@SgtToastie: I'm a Mac guy. If they closed up the system to make it more dependable and usable I'd consider giving it another shot.

waveman216

Let's see I own a iPod Video, iPod Shuffle, iPhone, iPhone 3G, MacBook, and an AppleTV and Hackintosh. Who is doing what wrong?

EVEs_Mako

@SgtToastie:
The great thing is that people would want that.

Of course, it'd be a sad day for OEMs that long depended on Microsoft as a crutch, unless they could get on board with Linux or some other OS pronto.

DisposableInterloper

If Microsoft goes the way of Apple, I'd be fairly excited. With any luck at all, developing Windows would be logistically simpler, and so it might perhaps make Windows not suck.

It would also bring about the Year of Desktop Linux, because OEMs would then be forced to adopt a new OS. Well, either that or those OEMs would wither away.

DisposableInterloper

that ballmer guy is a loser*, rich [which i envy], but a loser*

*[freedom of speech]

juddcarlos2003

@SgtToastie: I'd totally want it.

Jason Chen

nice first money shot ballmer

bong

discounteggroll

Does Steve Ballmer remind anyone else of Peter Boyle playing Frankenstein's monster in "Young Frankenstein"?

PlayerX

The sad thing is that people would want that....

SgtToastie

@DisposableInterloper: Nah, it'll still be Windows. If one wants this closed system so badly, Apple does it fairly well RIGHT NOW. Why wait? Why wait for MS to make a stable, safe OS, that doesn't bloat each time you install and then remove a piece of software? It's here now. Its called Leopard. Spend the extra one or two hundred bucks and buy a Mac.

Mark 2000

@aec007:
Thousands of choices that Apple users never enjoyed? Tell me again, where's the joy in sifting through lists of hardware to find components that don't suck and won't break the bank?

Sure, piecing it all together might be pleasant for some, and anyone might learn a thing or two along the way, but when you need a system up and running without spending a big chunk of time tinkering, wouldn't it be better to just get something that takes minutes to set up and works fine out of the box?

DisposableInterloper

@soopafly: That's a terrible argument.

bryanarr

@SgtToastie:
No shit people would want that!

Why wouldn't you want a system that runs properly? A system that works for you instead of you working for it?

Andwu

@altus: are you sure about that?
Bear in mind that each piece Mozart composed will have been recorded numerous times, so whilst each individual recording may not match a Britney album for sale, overall there may not be as big a gulf as you think.

Anyway, that's a little different - Britney fans probably don't have a go at Mozart lovers for the fact that one of her albums has sold X-million copies.
Apple fans do make quite a fuss about the iPod's market share and the sales of the iPhone, whilst tending to simultaneously ignore the market share of OS X compared to Windows.

Step666

If microsoft made their own pc and a verison of windows fo rit I would buy it instantly.

I still have a mcirosoft mn-700 router and Have used some microsft keyboards and such at work. I also have a zune 30gig.

Their hardware is actually pretty good and I would think that if microsoft made a pc like apple does it would be very competitive and would be pretty good.

majortom1029

@baltwade: 1st your forgetting that microsoft is counting Xp licenses as vista, 80% of OS X tiger users have upgraded to the new OS X Leopard, there's over 1 billion windows users wold wide and they only sold 120+ million licenses, and according to OEMs nearly 1/2 of the licenses where XP counted as Vista, so you think that's good? Microsoft controls about 90% of the market so even if it's a failure, by nature they have to sell more than Apple

snitch29

@baltwade:
You're forgetting one thing: OS X isn't being sold. Apple is not in the OS market, it's in the OEM market.

As an OEM, Apple is a strong competitor, and its market share continues to climb.

DisposableInterloper

@burnblue: my thought exactly.

bryanarr

@CommodorePerry: I didn't know Windows made computers?

soopafly

@jpitsch: so, to use your own point, what's your basis for the statement that Vista is a complete failure?

Step666

@burnblue: :(

EVEs_Mako

@baltwade: I believe that the Toyota Corolla has out sold the Porsche 911 GT3 as well.

soopafly

@baltwade: Good point. However if popularity made things better, Britney Spears has outsold Mozart many times!

altus

@Fused7: I see you have a closed mind.

iomatic

Are you Apple Fanboys ever going to allow a pro-Microsoft article on your forum?

robpruitt

@jackbling: Only if you were married to Windows, my friend. You think Dell, HP, etc. would just wither and die if Windows went private? Of course not; they'd go to Linux solutions, and lose considerable market share but stay in business. Meanwhile, Windows would also lose market share, as even if every single Windows user in the world were tied to Windows enough to buy Microsoft hardware, Microsoft wouldn't be able to meet that demand -- and there are certainly some folks that would still opt for cheaper (now Linux-based) hardware over Microsoft's new line, or whose brand loyalty goes more towards the computer's OEM than Microsoft. Less installed seats would mean that Microsoft would not command the market like they currently do.

Microsoft going private, from a pure revenue standpoint, would be a lose/lose proposition all around, and would send the entire industry (- Apple) into rebuilding mode. Which is why they'd never be that stupid -- at least unless and until they lost their iron grip on the market through other forces.

HeartBurnKid, creepy morbid freak

@DisposableInterloper:
"wouldn't it be better to just get something that takes minutes to set up and works fine out of the box? "

Sure!... just go to HP, Compaq, Dell or their outlets: Staples, Best Buy, Office Depot, etc... All those systems have good hardware, work right out of the box and are cheaper than Apple.
And in the future if you need to ADD something, you get it from a good brand and it works!.
If you happen to learn the basics of a PC you can even upgrade a PC for a fraction of the cost of a new one.
Then again, you can upgrade your Apple by disposing of it and buying a whole new one....

:)

aec007

@jpitsch: Yeah, maybe Ballmer can be a spokesman for Chinese Space Agency..

Jrsy is the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude

@Jrsy is the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another du...:
Yah, totally AT&T. It uses a GSM network, and it's bigger than T-Mobile, so Microsoft would be able to maximize its user base both domestically and internationally.

DisposableInterloper

So if Apple are an OEM company stop comparing them with Microsoft, compare them with Dell.
Vista is good, it had some teething troubles with drivers (as did XP) these are resolved now. This is the price you pay for hardware choice and a reasonably priced computing system. Live with it or buy a Mac.
You say Apple must be doing something right because they sell a lot of iPhones, compare them to Nokia. Apple have a tiny share of the mobile phone market
[www.readwriteweb.com]
Buy a Zune, it's way better than an iPod (I've owned 4 iPods so it's way better).
Xbox 360 is a way better experience than the PS3.
I'm not an MS fanboy (really I'm not) I just think it's time somebody gave them credit for the things they do well rather than following the sheep crowd dissing MS because it's seen as the cool thing to do.
Mindlessly accepting everything from the /. and Apple camps is exactly that. Mindless

davidhayes

@Mark 2000:
Uhm, I already did?

DisposableInterloper

@Townie:
That whole argument that PCs are faster and cheaper has evaporated by the time Apple transitioned to Intel hardware.

It's a little bit more expensive when you compare raw hardware specs, but when you consider the quality of the device you're buying, the cleanly designed input (seriously, big capacitive trackpad vs cheapo resistive touchpad), and the collection of full-featured, useful software (as opposed to craplets), Apple offers significantly better bang for buck.

DisposableInterloper

@snitch: Using those same thoughts, Microsoft sold more copies of Vista in 10 months than Apple sold computers over the past 10 years.

Using your logic, then OSX is a commercial failure.

geekpi

@baltwade: I completely agree. If Microsoft ever closed their system that would be the end. I absolutely hate the "Mac way". Now don't get me wrong, I don't hate Apple, I think their ideology works well for many people, but not for me personally. I build a computer with the components I want, and load it with the software I want. Take that away and it's useless.

thequinox

Neelie Kroes would not want that.

phuzzy

Apparently he hasn't looked at Apple's success with gaining laptop market share... oh yeah! And the iPhone... it's done okay too.

hagrun

@Mark 2000: one or two hundred extra bucks? i think the difference is a *little* more than that...

Macdelaney

@Step666:
And Just how many of those Vista licences are running Vista Plus (Windows XP)?

rattyuk

I would love it if Microsoft made a PC. I would definitely buy one, look at how great they did with their Keyboards and Mice, the 360 (I know, I know RROD was a big problem, but other than that it was great), and the Zune is just amazing. A Microsoft laptop or desktop would just be awesome.

Sam_Zebian

@robpruitt: Like what? There have been plenty of good Microsoft reviews. Like the touchscreen table. Their peripherals tend to be of good quality. I don't even mind Server 2003 or 2008 all that much, they're pretty good. I believe their desktop OS needs a major overhaul.

Outside of the RROD issue, many people love their XBOX 360's, and the original XBOX was a hit. The Halo games have been awesome as well. MS Owned FASA interactive during the heyday of Mechwarrior.

I actually like XP Pro as an OS. Vista leaves me gnashing my teeth in anguish that I need to use "search" in order to find things like how to change a folder view.

Xavoc

@Mark 2000: OR . . . you could get a PC with all the newest, greatest and fastest hardware with a clean install so there are only the programs you want, and speaking of programs 99% of all software will be compatible so you won't have to worry about that, or worry about anykind of hardware compatibility no matter who makes it or where you get it. Hell I just bought a Philips DVD player and it's compatible with the files on my PC.

Or go with Apple. They make a good computer and some software and a handful of prehensiles. As long as you don't want to much you should be fine.

baltwade

@iomatic:

You are right, now I thing about it, I'm bored of apple news here in Gizmodo. And they always are throwing shit to MS.

arod

@SgtToastie: I'm inclined to not want that for the very same reason I don't want a Mac.

Kymeira

@PlayerX: I think of "the monster" from Young Frankenstein every time I see Ballmer.

"Sweet mystery of life at last I've found thee..."
(Anyone who has seen the movie 25 times or more will know what that is...if not, you probably already think I am insane, so no point explaining.)

Curves Wants a Classic View Default

wow, the hater mentality is so evident in this article!

True, the XBox is closed and you said it was reasonable.

The Zune. . .haven't messed with it.

So, go ahead, take their least-purchased and least-influential product and base your entire argument on it. As opposed to just about EVERY product that Apple makes. . . Oh except for QT (which sucks) and iTunes (which sucks on Windows).

So a company that does EVERYTHING closed vs. a company that does most things fairly open (at least open standard and able to run on nearly any hardware platform). Hmmmm. . .which will you ream?

CaliBoom

@davidhayes: Ha, a Zune better than an iPod!

pdditty

I always get a nice chuckle out of any picture of Steve Ballmer. Seems like thats the trend lately, to find the most unflattering pictures of him for every article.

Aturayd

@Townie:

Townie...Rarely have PC's been faster.

And the cheaper part is true if you mean more CHEAPLY MADE/PUT TOGETHER.

Beyond that you have no clue of what you speak.
I come from the mid 70's computing world and am still in the midst of it today. You were probably still sucking your moms tattas when i was already a couple of decades into computers.

/get off my lawn!

bud-strange

@bryanarr:

Shame neither of you Burnblue or Bryanarr have a clue.

I shall fedex you one each...so you both will have a clue.

bud-strange

First Monkey Boy said that the iPhone will totally fail (there are plenty of videos on YouTube for this), now he claims 5 years! In 5 years he will say 5 more... IF Microsoft is still in the mobile business, that is. He also said they would beat Google in search, now he said 5 years... just in time for him to to retire with his billions.

Google will undermine Windows Mobile big time. It will run on many different hardware devices & phones and will be quite a bit MORE open then Windows Mobile. Best of all it will be FREE to the hardware manufacturers! Google makes their money with ads online and is killing MS biz model completely.

I have owned Windows Mobile, Nokia and Blackberry phones. But now I own an iPhone and love the integration and the App Store. No more struggling to simply USE the device. I see the iPhone as far more versatile and usable than Windows Mobile or a Blackberry. I have the iPhone doing many more tasks than I have ever had with the others.

digiprod

I almost forgot the point of this article, Microsoft's openess and closeness, due to the idea that a closed Microsoft box, ala Apple, would be a good thing.

Windows has to open. There are just to many sacraficies in a closed box.

The Xbox has to be closed. An open console would be a nightmare for developers and gamers.

The Zune??? Why would it be open. Most "media" players OS are so simple what company would need Microsoft's. However, what about the rumor that WinMo 7 will have a "Zune" mode built in. Making any device running WinMo 7 a "Zune". That's kind of open isn't it?

baltwade

@DisposableInterloper: So basically you're saying to put a WinMo gadget right next to the iPhone. Hehe. Yeah, I'd like to see that.

ripfire

"Puttin' on the riiiitz!"

crapcakes

@Curves Wants a Classic View Default: C'mere you hot monster!

Jrsy is the dude, playing the dude, disguised as another dude

Exactally, what I've been thinking for a long time. MS needs to actually close it up and make hw in house similar to xbox (w/o the red ring of course). Create there own MS Stores and make things easier. oh wait, apple is already doing this... hummm. I guess I'm switching to apple. MS you made the wrong choice.

8026mn

Uhh, either way Windows is (obviously) drastically more open than Apple. Yeah, Zune is closed, but the rest is just speculation. For now, this seems like a non-story to me until WinMo really does go closed, if it does.

rcast1986

of course I WOULD ABSOLUTELY NOT want Windows to be closed, because then I'd have a POS Mac, that would be as useful as the Mac-Mini paperweight sitting on my desk right now, beside my 3 PC's that are actually useful for more than looking at.

And windows mobile is not going to be closed. This article is retarded. fanboy.

wills916

You know,
I don't think people would be so anti-Balmer if he would just grow some eyebrows.

Coop

Captions for photos above:

1. "First, you go like this..."

2. "Then, you stretch it out like this..."

3. "Then it's BAH-DA-BOOM baby! Yessss!"

EricAlder

@bud-strange: @HeartBurnKid, creepy morbid freak: Also, with big names going with Linux, development would suddenly make a big shift. If the likes of Adobe, AutoDesk & friends were to start creating imaging and production software native to a distro like Ubuntu or equivalent, Microsoft would be worried, and they'd probably have R&D whip up a cross to crucify whoever came up with that plan.

Kaiser-Machead

It's easy to want a closed PC/platform if you look only from that side.
But there are several downsides, and I really really don't want them.

The list is too long, and I don't want to start a discussion, but just for starters, I think it's enough to say that the evolution of PCs would drop drastically due to lack of competition.

Which in turn, would affect just about every piece of software, game, and application. Developers wouldn't be able to choose this or that hardware, they'd be chained to a specific one, be it better or worse for their own needs.

Prices would rise because everything would be proprietary.
And if Microsoft made/chose a crappy hardware... or even a non-crappy hardware but that doesn't fit your needs... there'd be no other options for you other than resign to it.

Not a very good analogy, but it's something like this: you have some research to do, which would you choose: Books, or the Internet?

Books guarantees quality, and it's readily available. You'll have to pay the price for it, but it's there.

You have no quality guarantee on the Internet, but there's lots of info. And you'll also have to spend money for it, but not as much.

The first, you'll have to rely on the publisher and the publisher only. If it messes up, you're screwed.
Also, you might find a good entry for what you're looking for. But if you don't, you have no options left.

The Internet, you can spent tons of time searching from different resources, and you can end up with an unreliable piece of info.
But you'll eventually find something if you try hard enough.
Your research might not end up as good as you wanted to, but you'll have results nonetheless.
And if you spend time enough on it, you have good chances to get great results.

So, I think it's good to have both options. And depending on the profile of the computer user, he'll choose closed or open plaftorms.

But right now, only the thought of Microsoft closing their architecture gives me nightmares..

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

Ballmer eats little children.

Sticky230

It's interesting to me how everyone would assume that if Microsoft made it's own box for windows, that it would drop support for the built PC like they do now. Why couldn't they keep doing what they are doing now AND build their own box.

they could start with 1. see if it sells. If they started droping the push they have on hardware manufacturers like Dell and HP too quickly, they might just loose the grip they have on personal computers and the day of the linux desktop may actually come.

maybe.

Hoaxe

yeah...could someone explain to me why the zune is somehow "closed?"

really.

closed is having to change all your tunes to the itunes format. THATS CLOSED!

knappoleon

@discounteggroll: Hehe, I saw that too.

shamoononon has a hebetudinous dog

@Kymeira: That's right! Down with shit that actually works! The nerve of some people taking the "fun" out of buying equipment and having to fiddle with it to get it to work!

waveman216

@SgtToastie:

The day Windows is closed is the day I finally become a Linux guy.

Go ahead, have your closed systems. I'll take the work for the freedom you get and the fun of tinkering.

ZombieRace

MS could have made the Xbox360 platform open as well. They could have set limits on the hardware component requirements, provided the XBox360 OS, and set up one platform for all video game publishers to develop for-with no exclusives, etc. They could still have steered clear of the issues the PC gaming market has run into-because the PC gaming hardware isn't set-90% of the computers out there just aren't made for gamers. An open Xbox360 OS could be set for specific console hardware specs, if Ballmer were truly interested in the open approach.

The reason he isn't interested is the same reason they went closed on the Zune-the potential to make a lot more money if you do control everything from hardware to software, esp. Xbox Live add-ons and sequels.

dogcow

I can think of one very big piece of bloatware/crapware on my PC.

If Ballmer wants to talk about freedom he can start talking about Linux again - he'll remember. It's that little OS MS had steadily attempted to crush. BTW, it also doesn't crash every hour.

klamerus

@snitch29: Ok, so its 9 to 1. Either way...

diabolusunknownTheSecond

@bud-strange: I dont know if you have any idea of what you speak.

Give me 1500 bucks and i can build a PC with over 2 tera-flops worth of performance (counting the video cards).

I want you to find me a Mac that can compete while paying under 1500.

And guess what parts im using. Intel processors, ATI cards, Seagate hard drives, Asus motherboards, etc.

Guess who also uses those parts.

PC's, now that Macs have switched to Intel/Generic hardware, are always and forever will be capable of being built much faster then Macs because Macs have to be updated by Apple. A custom PC builder only has to replace a part or two to stay ahead of the curve.

Even my Quad PC with 2 GTX's put the current base Mac Pro to shame, and mine can be built for about 1100 bucks nowadays. Dont give me this bullshit that they are cheaply put together. Apples are built no better than alot of PC manufacturers, and i doubt they even reach the quality of build that some custom PC builders will put into their PC.

And guess what, nearly every part in my PC has a lifetime warranty. Your out of touch old man.

diabolusunknownTheSecond

If Windows crashes every hour, then you are an idiot. Stop spilling your soda on the keyboard. That would kill a linux box too, smartguy.

monkichi

There's something simple (or perhaps not so simple) that Microsoft should do.

Put a button, probably in the "Programs and Features" control panel, that says something like "Return my computer to a clean Windows install." Add a couple of scary warning dialogs for people to click through to do it.

Give people an easy way to eliminate all of the bloat from a new PC, Microsoft. That bloat reflects badly on you, because people don't blame Dell or HP when Windows is slow. They blame Windows. They blame Vista.

FuturePastNow

@aec007:
Bzzt. Wrong. Setup takes longer on all the brands you listed, both due to them being on Windows (which has more or less always had a tortuous setup process) and due to a hearty handful of warranty and trialware popups to wade through. That's not even touching on the nasty problem of uninstalling craplets and then installing software you might actually use.

Furthermore, that whole "Toss out your Mac to upgrade it" thing is lame bullshit. Even before Apple's transition to Intel hardware, there were plenty of aftermarket upgrades available. Now that Apple is essentially on the same hardware as anyone else, upgrades are as trivial as on a Windows PC. Need more RAM, a faster processor, a bigger harddrive, and newer graphics card? By all means, go for it. Honestly, I thought at least that much from the Apple-haters would've dried up by now.

DisposableInterloper

@ripfire:
There are already Windows Mobile devices on AT&T's network. Seriously, what are the Blackjack, Treo, and Moto Q?

I'm saying that if Microsoft would go down the same road as Apple went with the iPhone, it'd make sense logistically to go with AT&T. Let's look at it:

Verizon has a decent US customer base, but it'd force MS to make another version of the hardware for international markets. T-Mobile has somewhat weak customer base, but the phone could easily be made to work everywhere outside the US. Sprint has all the flaws of Verizon and T-Mobile, with none of the advantages. That leaves carriers that don't operate a network, which are notoriously prone to bankruptcy and buyouts.

DisposableInterloper

@baltwade:
Seriously, lay off the straw men. I don't think I've ever read anything so densely packed with so much flaky Apple-hater spew.

DisposableInterloper

Seriously, who gives a wet slap what what Ballmer thinks or says - sweaty idiot!

MINI Driver

@MINI Driver: Seriously, who gives a wet slap what you think or say - annoying fanboy!

diabolusunknownTheSecond

@DisposableInterloper:

"That whole argument that PCs are faster and cheaper has evaporated by the time Apple transitioned to Intel hardware."

Actually, now that they switched to the same hardware, the fact that PC's are faster and cheaper then Macs is pretty much guaranteed. Macs are updated less frequently then many manufacturers update PC's, and custom PC makers update their PC's at any time they wish, be it processor, memory, mainboard, video card, etc on the most popular form factor; the standard ATX case, which is an option on only one mac that starts at over 2400 dollars.

"t's a little bit more expensive when you compare raw hardware specs, but when you consider the quality of the device you're buying,"

Thats a bullshit line if ive ever heard one. HP quality has skyrocketed since they switched to their new designs, the XPS line of Dell is top knotch, and both of those companies have their PC's starting with substantially more powerful hardware compared with similarly priced Macs. The issue becomes difficult once you go into the 8 core Mac Pro range, which i will conceid is decently price considering the class of PC it is, however, once you step up to the ultra high end Mac, then once again it veers towards the PC in a substantial way. However the 4 core version is grossly overpriced.

Look, in case you forgot, Macs = PC's. I dont understand where Apple is getting this magical hardware that you seem to still be talking about, but its the exact same hardware that is currently in my PC, and is in many, many PC's available. A nice looking device does not automatically mean it has superior hardware, and there is absolutely no evidence that Apples, now that they sit on Intel hardware, is any better then an equivalently priced PC.

Your just spitting out complete bullshit and marketing lies.

diabolusunknownTheSecond

@DisposableInterloper: Yikes. . . calm down man. I don't hate Apple. I just don't prefer them, and I'm simply pointing out the main reason why so many, many people don't prefer Apple.

There are benefits to choosing Apple, I'll let you list them, but there is a huge sacrifice. The very limited compatibility with third party manufactures. Either in software, hardware, or prehensiles.

How many times have you been disappointed by the phrase "Not available for Macs"?

baltwade

@juddcarlos2003: Asterisks. Covering your ass and stupid facts since 1***.

The Magnificen7

@knappoleon: Except that ... you don't. Smart guy.

The Magnificen7

@Aturayd: Have you ever seen a good picture of him? Moving on...

The Magnificen7

@robpruitt: Are you Apple Haters ever going to open your goddamn eyes and shut your stupid mouths? If it's that bad, ignore it!

I think the lack of pro-MS articles means something, hmmmmm?

The Magnificen7

@EVEs_Mako: Ignore 'em man. You know what you enjoy and I know who got your money.

The Magnificen7

@ALT: Macs are PCs (PERSONAL COMPUTER). The most significant difference is the OS. Of course 2x the price for a Mac desktop. I'm just being a pain in the rear because I can :) I like them both. And I hate them both for different reasons.

Shinsplitter

@pdditty: I agree with davidhayes, I bought one for my girlfriend and she loves it. She's tried using her friends iPod and hates the iPod controls(guess there is something to be said for d-pad style controls as an option).

Shinsplitter

@digiprod: You my friend are delusional... iPhone is in NO WAY comparable to a Winmo or Crackberry device. I've used all 3 and would NEVER own an iPhone the whole touchscreen keyboard thing is aggravating, the phone itself just felt like a toy in my hand, and the fact that there is no running of multiple apps at the same time is a big killer in my opinion.
Oh and don't forget both Winmo and Crackberry feature a well implemented REVOLUTIONARY new feature known as Copy and Paste... Don't get me wrong they all have failures in different areas, My Tilt has no 3D drivers from the manufacturer, my Blackberry occassionally reboots itself randomly.
The most important thing to me though is that I get good battery life with both even under heavy use for media, and internet browsing, PLUS I don't have to lose half of my screen when I need to type :D

Did I forget to mention the MASSIVE community support for both phones, (Sooner or later I'll have Android on the Tilt :D)

Shinsplitter

@klamerus: What do you do to your computer that it crashes every hour? My Vista 64 box at home runs 24/7 unless It get's to be 100 degrees in the room, or It reboots for a software update. It hasn't BSOD'd on me since I replaced a bad RAM stick. That was over 6 months ago. And that is gaming, internet, movies, Media Center, Streaming to my 360, plus running it as a WAP for my cell and my girlfriends laptop when she's over.

Oh, I almost forgot about RDP connections to it from my phone, and from other machines.

Shinsplitter

@baltwade: My thoughts exactly.

While it would be nice if suddenly all things just worked on PCs, you'd always have to compromise on some other things.

Compromises I could never see myself take.

And this would just alienate me even more away from Microsoft. Giving even more control of *my own* PC (personal computer, if anyone remembers) system to a company with a profile of Microsoft... yikes... Never... because I like to think for myself. I know it comes with responsibilities but I love the feeling of freedom.

I don't want to just be there sharing the Microsoft experience ;) - I want to *own* my system. Period.

But as I see it there will *always* be a market for Apple, which is just fine and God help them win even more market share. That's what I'd want.
A more even market distribution between all the major OSes, yes - Linux included. That way there would be less place for a Microsoft like we have it today and there would be an obvious need to cooperate and follow some sane standards.

My hope is that when that happens the world could finally stop being locked in for personal profits of minorities. At least in OS market ;)

domicius

@baltwade:
Not when the sacrifices you list are straw men.

I will answer the question you pose at the end though: never. See, despite my rather zealous love of Apple, I'm platform-agnostic, and I've got a dual-booting Vista/openSUSE gaming PC I built with my own two hands, I've owned numerous prefabs, some of which are currently running Xubuntu or openSUSE, and of course, I've owned Macs.

It's out of firsthand experience that I can say how excellent Apple's hardware is versus prefabs and small builders, and how much superior Apple's software is to the competition. Apple isn't perfect, but nobody is, and it's my sincerest opinion that Apple is less un-perfect than anyone.

DisposableInterloper

@ZombieRace:

Amen ZombieRace

I like tinkering with my system and having options. Although I agree it would increase reliability I just don't see it happening. To many hardware manufacturers would be out of business and quite frankly it may fuel more operating system wars on a new level.

I personally think you should be able to upgrade the hardware. Who wants to repurchase Microsoft's expensive operating system + their controlled hardware every year?

I'd be on linux in no time.

addiktion

Isn't this guys sh!tty attitude enough to make you want to use products other than his if just for spite?

BiZarRroBALlmeR

As soon as Microsoft would make windows closed they'd be slapped by anti-trust laws in 10 different ways

cardboredbox

@Curves Wants a Classic View Default: "Blucher!" (lightning, horses whinnying)

PlayerX

@DisposableInterloper:

Not when the sacrifices you list are straw men.

If I remember my high school speech and debate class a "straw man" argument is where I would actually make positive points for your side, but very weak ones, and then tear them apart, hence the term "straw man".

I simply stated that Windows PC have a much larger diversity of software, hardware, and compatibility with third party prehensiles than Apple. That's not in any way a weak point for Apple that I can then tear down. It's just a fact. A fact that some find as a deal breaker and some don't really care about.

I also find your "expert" argument interesting.

I'm platform-agnostic, and I've got a dual-booting Vista/openSUSE gaming PC I built with my own two hands, I've owned numerous prefabs, some of which are currently running Xubuntu or openSUSE

Where did you learn debate... Tom Cruise?

baltwade

Since your debate-fu is weak, I shall give you a clear example of a straw man argument.

Creationists often try to claim that "evolutionists" would like you to believe your grandmother was a chimp. Obviously she's not, and so they've got the wrong idea.

If you don't see the straw man there, pack up and leave the floor.

DisposableInterloper

@baltwade:
The straw man argument is where you list false qualities and attribute them to a particular position, then tear that position down without actually attacking any real points. They don't need to be positive, they just need to be false. By all means, you're presenting a straw man argument.

Furthermore, I never did try to claim that I'm an expert or that my claims carry any weight beyond their own merits. You asked me if I'm ever disappointed and I responded "never." I then proceeded to explain what my background is as far as different systems go, so that you're not left with the wrong idea that the only thing I know how to do is navigate OS X. Simple enough for you to digest? I hope so.

DisposableInterloper

@DisposableInterloper: I don't know where you learned how to debate or if you've ever learned it. The "Straw Man" argument is simply arguing your opponents side for them, but weakly, and then tearing it down. It has nothing to do with making false statements. The whole point, and what makes the "straw man" argument so affective, is that what you are saying is true but in a manner that makes it easily defended.

And the whole point about your "expert" argument is that it's a sign of a week argument if the author uses a lot of "name dropping" to prop up their argument.

Your statement - "I'm platform-agnostic, and I've got a dual-booting Vista/openSUSE gaming PC I built with my own two hands, I've owned numerous prefabs, some of which are currently running Xubuntu or openSUSE"

Your statement without unnecessary props - "I have used and use other systems other than OS X.

Your style, while not that bad, reeks of being self taught with most of your info coming from the internet. Maybe you should read a book or take a class or something

baltwade

@baltwade:
The straw man is a misrepresentation of the opponent's position or the basis of the opponent's position. Weakly or strongly, if the position is presented accurately, it's not a straw man. The only way an argument can be torn down is if it doesn't stand on its own legs, and the only arguments that can't stand up are the ones that don't hold water.

You spat out a whole post of exaggerated and wholly inaccurate claims, implicitly and explicity, about Apple's products whilst comparing how great a new PC would be. You were tearing down a straw man like any other.

As for your accusation of name dropping, I wasn't making an argument there, hence I wasn't propping it up. As I've stated, the point was to lay out, in no unambiguous terms (unlike, as you've suggested, "I've used other OSes besides OS X.") that I'm not the stereotypical dumbass Mac user. Perhaps vocal tone would help lay out the context, but unfortunately, English text cannot accurately convey that.

DisposableInterloper

Err, I was thinking of "no ambiguous terms" and "unambiguous terms" at the same time, and the two got mashed up.

DisposableInterloper

Above everything else, this serves as a way to highlight exactly what Microsoft has accomplished with Windows. Apple can make an OS that runs on their hardware...great. The only hardware it is required to run on is hardware they themselves design and manufacture, making their development and QA process very simple. Microsoft, on the other hand, has made an OS that runs on absofuckinglutely everything. Hundreds of different hardware manufacturers, making for thousands of possible combinations of these manufacturers within one PC, all compatible with a single OS.

That is an impressive feat indeed, and something Apple fanboys need to step back and take a good long look at.

Z4N5H1N

@EVEs_Mako: Including the Hackintosh was a mistake. If macs are built so perfectly, why bother building your own? Sounds like your blinding love for apple is beginning to fade.

BoardStupid

I don't think it would be such a bad idea for Microsoft to pick some hardware and build an OS solely for that hardware, so long as they still went ahead with their current model too. This would give the consumer even more choice.
1. Buy from HP/Dell/etc with unoptimised hardware + bloatware (cheaper option).
2. Buy from Microsoft with closed hardware and software (more expensive but also more reliable).
3. Build your own system and buy the stand alone OS (possibly cheapest option but also the most work)

If a closed system would help certain people/businesses, why deny them it?

BoardStupid

1st pic:
"Her vajayjay was this big!!"

2nd pic:
"Then she stroked us both with her hands."

3rd pic:
"Finally, I released it! It went all over her face!"

takashimiike 7

@baltwade: Flame War!!!!!

tamoko

@altus & @soopafly: iPod still outsells Zune, just like Toyotas and Britney Spears.

Biggy

@waveman216:

fascism works too

pevans34

@DisposableInterloper: yikes these apple boys be getting owned!

but its understandable since comparing closed systems to open systems is like comparing democracy to dictatorship. get back on your longboard and skeedaddle!

pevans34

@Z4N5H1N: good point

pevans34

I am boggled as to why Microsoft has yet to wipe the slate clean and develop a new version of Windows from the ground up using a VM (emulation) for backward compatibility. The cruft, which is Vista, could be cut in half and they would be able to compete again. Vista's backward compatibility is crap, and people are still reluctant to bite. Virtualize the lot of it, and move on monkey man.

TristaFimbria

People don't want microsoft to control all the hardware. That is the beauty of the Computer market - there are thousands of products from thousands of manufacturers, I GET TO CHOOSE which one I want. Its called competition - which leads to better products at cheaper prices. UNLIKE APPLE - where everything costs too much and looks exactly the same. THERE IS NO INDIVIDUALITY when 1 company makes everything. E.G. I want a smartphone. I can buy an Apple Powered Phone (iPhone), but then It will look like every other iPhone on the planet. OR i can buy a Windows or Symbian powered phone, that way I get to choose which feature set I want (e.g. I don't need 3G on my phone as my Uni has WIFI), so I don't pay extortionate prices for feature I am not going to use. PLUS i get to choose which device design suits me (e.g. I can choose from loads of Nokia handsets which have very similar feature sets but look very different). -------------------- BUT -------------------- All of that said, when Microsoft do make hardware - IT IS BLOODY GOOD. E.G. XBOX, ZUNE etc. So Microsoft making some hardware is a good idea. But locking their software to only run with their hardware IS A VERY BAD IDEA. THAT IS THE END OF MY RANT...

OlafCatoblepas

I'd be interested to see what a "Microsoft PC" would be like. An good avenue they could pursue would be to offer tiered products similar to Apple's lines but still offer Windows as a standalone installer at a cheaper price, not the $199+ that it sells for now. The Xbox has succeeded because of its closed system and seamlessly integrated online XBL component. Practices MS would have to change if pursuing a closed line of machines would be #1) eliminating 7+ versions of its OS, two "regular" and "pro" versions would suffice. 2) Reduce the OS cost when purchasing a machine, the software would essentially be free and profit would result strictly from hardware sales (Apple's model). 3) Drop legacy support (NT4, Me, 9x and below) from hardware bundled versions of the OS. Peripheral makers would be responsible for writing drivers that supply needed components when using with the legacy-free OS. Just a couple steps could help MS create a solid product (hardware+software) combo while not alienating those who would prefer to build their own machine or 3rd party hardware vendors (3rd party computer makers would not have access to the legacy-free OS and need to use the standalone version). This could also put a divide between the polished, lean machines MS makes and 3rd parties like Dell and HP. Let them fend for themselves if they don't like the standalone Windows. They might actually take some serious interest in helping Linux get an ease-of-use and penetration level that Windows and Mac OSX enjoy.

ChristinaAcacallis

Sorry, but this is a very ignorant article. While it is entirely possible that Microsoft would want to work on an end-to-end experience device, it would still be based on Windows Mobile which is an embedded operating system with a very mature and open SDK and free to boot. That means it is in fact *NOT* a closed system. The reason Apple gets flack for their SDK is because it has very limited functionality in comparison to every other platform, an air tight NDA, and a single channel, incredibly restricted publishing system. Besides, picking on Zune for being closed platform? How many PMPs really are completely open? Outside of a couple niche devices (and custom firmware), none. Let me know when I can develop software for the non-touch iPods a la XNA. Hell, even the 360, expected to be a closed platform, has XNA development available which is comparable in feature strength to the iPhone SDK without the NDA limitations.

NonaNarea

Interesting to read the thread here. My observations: 1. Just because something has sold in larger quantities has never meant it was better. 2. I am happy to pay more for anything thats important to me and my life if its more reliable and usable. 3. I use OSX, XP, Vista and Ubuntu. Sometimes it doesn't matter what it is. Sometimes its very important. Its what I want to accomplish and what software does the "job" best that rules. OK - continue! :)

ResedaGebronie