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Microsoft Beats Apple's iTunes Genius with MixView
Posted by Jesus Diaz at 11:00 PM on September 16, 2008
They must be making popsicles in hell now, because Microsoft has come up with a much better way to expand your musical horizons than Apple iTunes 8's Genius in their new Zune software: MixView. Not only is MixView much prettier and more fun than Genius--we already knew that--it's also more useful, more informative, and it leverages the infamous social aspect of Zune in a beautiful way. In fact, it makes Genius look like a flat, grey, boring Windows application.
MixView shows music you may find interesting based on a playing song in a graphical way. It also shows the relations graphically. Take this shot of Billy Joel's Piano Man:
At a simple glance, you can see albums that are related to this song. The interface invites you to explore, seeing artists influenced by this artist, artists who influenced this artist, and similar albums by the same artist. You learn this quickly because when your cursor flies over, a translucent bubble tells you more about it: "Richard Marx influenced by Billy Joel" or "Frankie Valli influenced Billy Joel." On the top you can see Billy Joel's The Strangers, while on the bottom you can see James Taylor's Sweet Baby James, which is a related album.
In the black boxes you can see the names of the top listeners of the song. If you put your mouse on top, a small list of the Zune user's favourites appears, allowing you to go and explore his or her library in depth. All of this happening fast, giving instantaneous responses to all your actions.
Now, compare this simple but beautiful and powerful user interface with this:
I rest my case. While the list is simple, even with the Coverflow effect on to make it visually more palatable it's definitely not as engaging as Microsoft's solution. In fact, it is more confusing and overwhelming. If the purpose of Genius is to invite you to expand your musical horizons--like Apple says--this is definitely not the right way to entice listeners to do so. In addition to that, not only Genius looks like an accounting application--and completely out of sync with what you can find on your own iPod touch--but Genius recommends songs that you already have just because they are in a "Best of" album.
While Zune's MixView doesn't have any really new features--other web services offer similar things--what's new is how perfectly they have implemented the whole thing, how good, elegant, and simple it looks. Quite simply: MixView is what Apple should have done from the very beginning with Genius. And I don't even have a Zune. Would this make me switch to Zune? I like my iPhone and the rest of iTunes too much to switch because of a single feature. But if Apple doesn't wake up and smell the coffee, they may find themselves as a runner-up in the user interface front. [Thanks OMG! Ponies!]
Comments (AU Comments · US Comments)
Mattytm
Posted September 17, 2008 3:54 AM
I find Mixview fits in more with the Zune/Social idea. It relates artists to other artists and other people in the 'social' who like that artist as well. Very six degrees. I just did a Mixview on Cut Copy.. It came up with singles and albums from them, related albums and artists, an artist which influenced them and 2 profiles. It's also peoples profiles which get a mixview so you can see what other people have been listening to as well. I find it a fun little feature which does well in making connections between music artists and music listeners.
Will I use it often? Probably not. But its pretty neat to see all this extra information about an artist and other music recommendations. I think i'm more inclined to view other peoples playlists, its fun to see what other people are listening to, and if it matches your tastes, its a great way to find new music.
graverobber- It says Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posted 11:33 PM 16/9/08
So, the Zune software only recommends Albums? While iTunes digs more granularly to song level? I think I'll stick with iTunes. I can't tell from the album shots what artist each of those is, and I'm more interested in finding songs that I like, not buying albums.
I think the Zune thing works okay with a subscription model, while the iTunes thing works better with a purchase model.
BTW, why is the Zune software BG blurred out? Can't you go to a different song in the same screen, or do you have to go out and back in? If so, then FAIL.
graverobber- It says Loud Pipes Save Lives
Chromeo
Posted 11:33 PM 16/9/08
Wow...something more aesthetically pleasing to the eye...from Microsoft?
Mind. Blown.
Chromeo
Ike_Skelton
Posted 11:33 PM 16/9/08
iTunes is sure ugly. Wish they would let you skin it easier.
Ike_Skelton
The Replay Booth Disinfectant Intern
Posted 11:33 PM 16/9/08
@davesousa: ...Who are you even talking to? It's like you copied that from another Apple post and pre-emptively used it here. No one hated yet. At all. You were the only one with a negative comment until that point (aside from the Aerosmith mention).
This looks like something I would end up getting lost in for hours.
The Replay Booth Disinfectant Intern
thetickler
Posted 11:30 PM 16/9/08
@smartboydan hates college: what about Fangirls?
thetickler
Drummer_Boy
Posted 11:30 PM 16/9/08
@peekabooPC:
Oh fuck off.
Credit where credit's due, eh?
Drummer_Boy
mangochutney
Posted 11:30 PM 16/9/08
Way to go Redmond.
mangochutney
flaxseed
Posted 11:30 PM 16/9/08
@thebigcheese: iTunes Genius is not very well done but you're talking about the Genius Side Bar. There are 2 things and Genius Side Bar and Genius Playlist.
flaxseed
SgtToastie
Posted 11:30 PM 16/9/08
Wow, that looks amazing for a Microsoft product! Could Microsoft actually be working at making products based off of consumer tastes?
Pity to see the fanboys are already out in full force. I mean gripping over the fact that they show the genius toolbar instead of the genius playlist window? Aren't we all a little old for that kiddies?
SgtToastie
TableZero
Posted 11:29 PM 16/9/08
Yeah it looks pretty, but I just use Genius to create playlists.
TableZero
nachobel
Posted 11:29 PM 16/9/08
MixView looks cool, I like genius because I just click the button and boom, playlist. I don't sit at my desk really and stare at my music collection.
Anyway, mixview def. looks cool, probably works way awesome, but it terms of my wants, genius is a 1-stop "playlist creation" tool and it works really well imo.
nachobel
peekabooPC
Posted 11:29 PM 16/9/08
I think microsoft may have got this from something like this... [www.liveplasma.com]
peekabooPC
thebigcheese
Posted 11:25 PM 16/9/08
I think I'm mostly impressed by the social idea of it. iTunes Genius just tells you to buy songs it recommends if you don't have them, whereas MixView lets you listen to songs you don't have from other people's libraries for free. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
thebigcheese
jbang
Posted 11:24 PM 16/9/08
Genius pushes purchasing from the iTunes store too much - that in itself makes it seem a bit more of an ad than a feature.
MS has something pretty special with the ZuneUI and software... simple(ish), minimal, useable. If iTunes wasn't tied to millions of peoples pockets via their iPods there might be a substantial threat here.
Re: Automated suggestion services.
I'm yet to find any suggestion service that has led me to anything I end up engaging with over a long time. Reading, researching and listening to lots of random stuff is the way I find new music.
jbang
SpudMills
Posted 11:19 PM 16/9/08
The big question is, who did they rip this off from?
SpudMills
Meursault
Posted 11:19 PM 16/9/08
I live in an all Apple environment at home and like it that way, but I have to admit the MS interface sure is pretty. In fact MS may be poised to make some big gains on Apple's multi-media home turf. But then again we really never know what Apple is up to secreted away in Cupertino.
All I can say is when the #$%^ is Apple going to do make a franken-mini-apple-tv type super machine for my living room?
Meursault
Jeff Martin
Posted 11:18 PM 16/9/08
Who's hating? MixView looks hella cool.
Jeff Martin
davesousa
Posted 11:15 PM 16/9/08
wow, Microsoft actually does something properly and look at you apple fanboys u can barely hold in your stupid ass comments. your big argument is always that they don't do shit properly, now they do and ur still hating, its incredible.
davesousa
flaxseed
Posted 11:09 PM 16/9/08
@beyondthetech: Are there any Microsoft fanboys in this planet other than Steve Ballmer?
flaxseed
Jeff Martin
Posted 11:09 PM 16/9/08
You might be right...Genius is kind of silly and half-baked (but rather entertaining), but if you're going to bash it, do what flaxseed suggests and use an actual screenshot of Genius.
Jeff Martin
Curves
Posted 11:08 PM 16/9/08
This is going to piss off the FanBois. Its like Jesus has become an Iconoclast and they wont like it. Not one bit.
Curves
amillians
Posted 11:07 PM 16/9/08
Wow...that's a lot of Aerosmith.
amillians
Drummer_Boy
Posted 11:07 PM 16/9/08
Please MS, for the love of God don't restrict this to the Zune and you have a winner on your hands.
Drummer_Boy
beyondthetech
Posted 11:07 PM 16/9/08
Aw, c'mon, let the Microsoft fanboys gloat a little. They don't have much to go on as it is.
beyondthetech
smartboydan hates college
Posted 11:07 PM 16/9/08
Holy crap. Microsoft: 1, Apple: Everything else.
Not really, but that's how people are gonna view it.
Cue Apple Fanboys.
smartboydan hates college
Zadillo
Posted 11:06 PM 16/9/08
Definitely an interesting point - although personally, I've found that I'm using the Genius feature to make a handful of 25-song playlists from various songs I like, and then listening to those playlists on my iPhone or iPod. And for that purpose, it is having the intended effect I think of letting me sort of "discover" music that is in my library but that I haven't really listened do (album tracks from albums I bought for only a song or two, etc.). In this case, the actual interface for creating those playlists or seeing the relationships doesn't matter quite as much to me.
I do like the idea of MixView though, and I think this does a good job of explaining the benefits of it.
Zadillo
flaxseed
Posted 11:05 PM 16/9/08
Your iTunes screenshot is not showing Genius. You're showing the Genius side bar.
flaxseed
DaiWalka
Posted 12:02 AM 17/9/08
@nachobel: My thoughts exactly. Well said..er, typed. :)
DaiWalka
Late_Night
Posted 12:01 AM 17/9/08
when I make a genius playlist i put it into coverflow which makes iTunes pretty, or turn on my visualizer ::stares::
Late_Night
zlayde
Posted 12:01 AM 17/9/08
Can u use this softwaare without owning a Zune?
zlayde
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Posted 11:58 PM 16/9/08
@flaxseed: The Genius Sidebar is the dopiest thing ever. That screenshot recommended that I buy songs I already own. It does the same with a lot of other artists.
There are a lot of bands who I am a fan of and I own many of their albums. For example - the Beastie Boys. While playing "No Sleep Till Brooklyn", Genius recommended I buy "No Sleep Till Brooklyn" with the only difference being that the one iTunes wanted me to buy was off a greatest hits album. The algorithm is half-baked.
@amillians: Yes I have a lot of Aerosmith. They used to be good. Now they're crap.
And yes, I have a lot of Bob Dylan. And yes, 6 steps below Bob Dylan is Britney Spears. LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!
OMG! Apple Stinks!
mackycorp
Posted 11:56 PM 16/9/08
@Galley:
I'm at work so I haven't been able to mess with the new software yet, but I'm fairly certain that it shows related artists and related albums seperately. So the album art would be related albums, and headshots would be related artists.
mackycorp
redfood
Posted 11:56 PM 16/9/08
When I used genius I was very disappointed it doesn't work with iTunes shares available on the local network.
redfood
Galley
Posted 11:51 PM 16/9/08
Why are there headshots of some artists, and album artwork from others? What if I don't recognize a current photo of Frankie Valli, or some faceless band of today? I'll stick with my text links, and instant access to song previews in the Genius Sidebar.
Galley
Statik
Posted 11:50 PM 16/9/08
Cue Apple fanboys?
Cue bitter, frustrated PC fans launching some pre-emptive Apple fanboy-bashing. What, are you afraid we're gonna try take your candy away?
And shame on Giz, again, I'm calling them out on some deliberate OS war baiting.
You rarely post articles with ridiculous titles like "Apple beats Microsoft's Zune with iPod 2.1 software update" do you?
On the MixView app. Looks okay. Reminds me of mindmaps...
To be honest, I'll agree with jbang's last point. I'm not that impressed by Genius, MixView or any other automated suggestion services, but I guess it's made for people who need it.
Statik
ARP
Posted 11:46 PM 16/9/08
A great improvement to MS's version is if they could do a 3D Time Machine interface, where for a given band (e.g. Interpol), you could "travel" back to their influences and precursors (Joy Division), left and right to bands in the same general family (The National) and then forward to contemporaries.
ARP
kenleewrites
Posted 11:45 PM 16/9/08
yeah.. you're just showing the genius sidebar.
mixview might look prettier, but i can definitely scan through more items in a list quicker with just a glance.
kenleewrites
s1pacrat
Posted 12:21 AM 17/9/08
It seems that this sort of thing makes much more sense with a subscription service rather than a per-song thing. If you buy a recommended song on iTunes and don't like it, you're out $0.99. So extra points to Microsoft for this.
s1pacrat
ALT
Posted 12:16 AM 17/9/08
Damn straight. I hate the genius! Go mix-view and maybe the boys in redmond should make a mac version?
Honestly, this is so much better. For God's sake, you could use it for basic music research. Some douchebag name drops some impossibly obscure band, two seconds later you know who they cribbed their beats from. This is a weapon against hipsters! Huzzah!
ALT
skylark64
Posted 12:15 AM 17/9/08
Musicplasma.com has been doing something similar for years. To me, the real genius of Genius is not the "expand your musical horizons" aspect. I mean, who cares what music Apple thinks I should buy.
No, the real feature is the Genius playlist. Pick a song in your library and hit the Genius button. It makes a playlist from your library of songs that go with that song. It even seems to order them in a nice mix. It is like all the cool randomness of shuffle without the bad matchups of Dixie Chicks and System of a Down that inevitably happen.
I've turned the Genius sidebar off. I usually go to music blogs or the library when I want to expand my horizins. I am surprised how many people have yet to see this and how Apple has failed to emphasize it.
skylark64
TM-Oliveira
Posted 12:12 AM 17/9/08
There we go with the everlasting fanboy war....
TM-Oliveira
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Posted 12:07 AM 17/9/08
@ARP: You just described exactly what MixView does.
OMG! Apple Stinks!
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Posted 12:06 AM 17/9/08
@zlayde: Yes. No Zune required. Free software. Looks nice. No Zune required.
OMG! Apple Stinks!
BeowulfRex
Posted 12:49 AM 17/9/08
@jwm1314: And in edition to not showing the genius playlist, there's nothing selected/playing. Therefore, there's no album cover showing, so it looks even more "boring".
This is, however, a nice example of a straw man comparison.
BeowulfRex
ZetaCrossfire
Posted 12:49 AM 17/9/08
must download...
ZetaCrossfire
jriga
Posted 12:46 AM 17/9/08
It's a nice screenshot, and it DOES look cleaner than iTunes. BUT, and this ia a big one, Apple is always working to make it better. And when I say 'it' I mean everything. Do you think that Jobs and Co. are in 'FINAL' of iTunes? That no more development is going to be done? THIS is the leap-frog game that leads to good products if you ask me. One thing I've found with Apple is that by the time a I get something in my hands to use and discover the weak points, Apple has usually been hard at work fixing those weak points. Seems like it's never very long I have to wait before Jobs' OCD keeps making __________ (insert iTunes, iPod, iPhone, OS X, whatever) better on new levels.
Wouldn't surprise me to see iTunes 8.x or 9.0 have an all-new interface that completely blows away everything that came before it. In the end, consumers win by this.
As for you people crying 'fan boy' this and 'fan boi' that - eat me! MS drops ONE product that looks decent and all of the sudden I'm supposed to forget the past 30 f'ing years of junk? Give me a break. This is the same company that decided Seinfeld was the guy to reintroduce the brand.
jriga
Scott
Posted 12:42 AM 17/9/08
I need to get a tattoo or something!
Scott
MyquiH
Posted 12:39 AM 17/9/08
This must be the software that Seinfeld wrote for Microsoft! Suddenly, the ads all make sense...
MyquiH
VasiS
Posted 12:37 AM 17/9/08
did you forget "Picks" and "Channels" from Zune 3.0?
VasiS
CYST!
Posted 12:35 AM 17/9/08
@ALT:true hipsters will foil your plan by listening to only unrecorded artists. Listening to music anywhere outside of a houseparty is SO yesterday, gramps.
I actually have a four-piece band for my bicycle now.
CYST!
jeffindayton
Posted 12:35 AM 17/9/08
Impossible! MS beats Apple at anything?
No Way! Apple is perfect, just ask any Ipod nerd. Besides Apple will have something next week thats twice as good as any MS vaporware.
jeffindayton
bud-strange
Posted 12:33 AM 17/9/08
genius is like album view...eye candy. Same for this.
I do not listen to music based on its relationship to other songs/artists.
I listen to music in playlists i have created that i like.
Good luck writing a program to second guess my next selection. Not gonna happen.
bud-strange
Statik
Posted 12:33 AM 17/9/08
I've thought of a few alternative headlines:
"MixView innovations reinforce troops on the frontline of brutal & pointless OS war"
or
"MixView allows Windows fanboys opportunities to combat imaginary Apple smugness"
ps. Fanwar=1, you=0
Statik
joestoner
Posted 12:28 AM 17/9/08
How does MixView work on portable devices though? Those screenshots seem to be on the desktop, but is there something similar on a zune?
It does look better than iTunes (both the sidebar and the actual playlists) but I'd have to actually use it and compare its limitations to really judge the product as a whole. As it stands, I've been using genius on a Touch and it has been pretty easy - on a portable, I don't want that much graphical stuff going on, I just want to set it and start listening.
joestoner
marlow2689
Posted 12:27 AM 17/9/08
No anger towards either set of fanboys here...
does anyone know if this is going to be exclusively zune software, or if MS might implement this into windows media player?
marlow2689
Rask
Posted 12:27 AM 17/9/08
Ya know what sucks.. Since Canadians don't have access to the Marketplace yet, No Mixview, no nothing of the cool stuff that were in today's update at all except for the games,Audible, the clock and the device lock..
Rask
jwm1314
Posted 12:25 AM 17/9/08
In all honesty...
a.) you're not showing Genius view, just the side bar
b.) you added the browser on top just to make things look more confusing
i think both features are good but very different. one is more about what you already own while the other is more of a what you could own.
jwm1314
Ken_Darrow
Posted 1:07 AM 17/9/08
Wow visually flashy, but unintuitive and difficult to manage and review lots of related items.
Ken_Darrow
Rabid Penguin
Posted 1:05 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Apple Stinks!: Siderman. Spiderman. Radioactive Spiderman.
lol. I loved the mid-90's cartoon.
Rabid Penguin
digiprod
Posted 1:04 AM 17/9/08
MS is the best, the Zune is the BEST, this why they have so many users and market share! They all meet when they were "Welcomed to the Social and the Wow began!" LOL!
Your opinions really don't count, that market place does. While MS still is chasing the iPod and iTunes from three years ago, Apple has moved on to the iPod touch and the iPhone. MS does not even have a product that can "touch" these, pun intended. Genius playlist is a cool nice new feature, but is ONLY a different smart playlist that has existed in iTunes for years. Who cares?
I hope the seven people who own a Zune enjoy the new features for as long as the Zune survives and MS continues to lose ground and money!
Where is the Zune phone? The Zune touch? The Zune App Store? I have over 100 apps running on my iPhone and iPod touch and have not even looked at my iPod classic or nano in months!
Still never seen a Zune actually being used by anyone in the real world! I guess I am not social enough...
digiprod
trekkie
Posted 12:59 AM 17/9/08
So it looks pretty? Yes. Interesting implementation.
However at the end of the day my music is auditory, and I just want to play around with playlists creation which is what genius does. This does it too in a new and interesting way visually but I listen to music, I don't watch it. I mean who ever heard of 'watching' music? Music Video? That's unpossible.
trekkie
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Posted 12:59 AM 17/9/08
@Rabid Penguin: "Saturday Morning Cartoons" which has a great cover of the Spiderman theme song by the Ramones, "Songs in the Key of Springfield", and "The Muppet Movie" soundtrack which Girlie has on CD and is damned hard to find.
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Jesus Diaz
Posted 12:58 AM 17/9/08
@Statik: Say what you want. It's still better, more entertaining, and more useful to explore new music, which is what Genius is designed to do.
The problem with fanboys of one or the other side is that they always take things personally. I love my iPod, I love iTunes, but that doesn't stop me from recognizing that one thing is better.
Jesus Diaz
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Posted 12:57 AM 17/9/08
@jwm1314: Yes I had nothing playing.
However, to be fair, I always use the browser to find things in iTunes. I hate iTunes current grid view and feel that Zune does the grid view better. It runs smoother and is generally less cluttered. Also, Zune 2.5 had grid view before iTunes 8 introduced it.
OMG! Apple Stinks!
Rabid Penguin
Posted 12:55 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Apple Stinks!: Good stuff. Thanks for the info. So how much stuff do you have under the "Children's Music" category?
Rabid Penguin
Jesus Diaz
Posted 12:52 AM 17/9/08
@bud-strange: I don't think you get the objective of what this is for. Of course, if you only listen to the same artists again and again and don't want to discover new stuff, this will be useless for you.
Jesus Diaz
BeowulfRex
Posted 12:52 AM 17/9/08
@BeowulfRex: that would be addition, not edition. too much rewording of comment, not enough editing.
BeowulfRex
Jesus Diaz
Posted 1:25 AM 17/9/08
@dypark: Correct.
@Ken_Darrow: You miss the point. MixView is designed to expand your musical horizons, to invite to explore new music. I love music, I love to read about it, and I love the fact that I can see who influenced what, as well as getting exposed to other artists.
This is the main purpose of Genius too. Genius is ok, but MixView does a better job.
Jesus Diaz
t3chDzyn
Posted 1:23 AM 17/9/08
Whoa! OMFG! Did anyone check out the new visualizer? Do the full screen visualizer and play a decently known band, works for NIN, Chevelle, CKY, and Rammstein that I've noticed so far... amazing.
t3chDzyn
dypark
Posted 1:16 AM 17/9/08
Be objective folks. From an interface perspective, MSFT did do a better job than Apple. Let's give them that. Maybe Apple will come up with a better interface in their next version but the current version is not very engaging.
Why do folks feel compelled to give Apple a hall pass? They make lots of great products and some crappy products too.
dypark
92BuickLeSabre
Posted 1:14 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Apple Stinks!: No zune required? Iiiiinteresting.
Between this and the McD's wifi...c'mon Apple, get movin' here...the big bad boys of Redmond are picking up a head of steam!
92BuickLeSabre
Brentis
Posted 2:00 AM 17/9/08
also having seen apples itunes for the first time in years- my initial reaction was that it looks like a spreadsheet... eh.
Brentis
Brentis
Posted 1:59 AM 17/9/08
I just downloaded and have played with it a bit. Outside of the visual improvements I'm most blown away with the speed - much faster than 2.5! Usually when MS adds features their performance drops 2x (guess the Vista team was on vacation during this build).
Brentis
cyclonus5150
Posted 1:57 AM 17/9/08
While MixView is quite pretty, I don't like the way that it steals focus from the rest of the UI. It feels more like a separate tool altogether whereas Genius feels like an integrated utility.
I'm not a big fan of the Genius sidebar but it doesn't steal focus and it's a tiny bit handy when I'm looking to find some similar music based on my currently playing or selected track.
I absolutely love the Genius playlist feature both in iTunes and on the portable. I've got a rather extensive library and thanks to a serious eMusic addiction, I add a ton of tunes each month and don't have time to listen much. Genius is helping me to explore those tracks with a relevant perspective as opposed to a dumb shuffle. It's super handy to be able to start Genius on my iPhone as well.
I don't believe that this MixView has any sort of carryover to the Zune device so for me it's really nothing more than a time sink while sitting at my computer.
cyclonus5150
Gilbert
Posted 1:47 AM 17/9/08
@flaxseed: Yes, it is. Hence "Based on Crush by Dave Matthews Band" in the top screen cap.
@Jesus Diaz:
Other commenters might have already suggested as such, but in your article you mention more informative results which leverage the social aspect of the Zune, but only go on to describe the benefits of the UI--right after telling us it was something we already knew.
I would love to hear how the results are better and why. I am a huge proponent of the rationale behind Genius, MixView, Pandora, et al: to open one's horizons and discover otherwise unfound relationships.
Also, while some accounting applications fail to be pretty, it doesn't necessarily mean they're less powerful, which is the conclusion you suggest in your argument.
In looking at the Zune interface, I agree with how gorgeous it is, but how can I, for example, copy and paste a playlist and share it with friends (assuming other views aren't available)?
Also, it seems difficult to get a quick sense of what the results have to offer without a lot of unnatural scanning. At least in list form, I can scroll my eyes and develop a sense of what's to follow.
I'm not really trying to quote utility over beauty here. With Apple, according to the fanboys and people's wallets (including my own), we're supposed to have the best of both worlds. Also, it was the UI that originally set the iPod apart from its competitors who balked in the face of change.
Is this the next change, and now I'm the one balking?
Gilbert
LostAtoll
Posted 1:44 AM 17/9/08
I gotta say I haven't used microsofts mix view.. but I am in love with the genius playlist.. it picks songs that really go together amazingly, and i usually create a new genius playlist from one of the songs in it.. so it's just like this awesome circle of endless good music that morphs.. it's really accurate and really smart. thats all.. even if the ms version was better, i'll never know because i'll never own another ms product, soft or hard..
ohh.. and those commercials with seinfeld.. seriously horrible.. imho
LostAtoll
c-sharp
Posted 1:42 AM 17/9/08
@zlayde: Yes you can use it without a zune player.
c-sharp
bigfatduck
Posted 2:19 AM 17/9/08
all these microsoft FUD articles are missing the point completely: mixview is 1 sided, genius is a 2 part system.
mixview is basically the genius sidebar in a pretty package taking up your entire screen so you have to explicitly want to go in and find something else. genius sidebar sits nicely to the side so you can just glance over at any given point to see if it happens to be recommending something that might interest you. or you can turn it off completely and use the genius playlist creation only.
genius playlist creation, which i think is what most people will use genius for and i think it's the real "genius" part of this service, is it's ability to generate a playlist of individual songs that go good with one particular song you're listening to at the moment. it's like pandora, but for your own music library. for people with large music libraries, this is a godsend. and it's right on your iphone or ipod, useful on the go. notice i don't have anything to say about the microsoft mixview here, it's because it's only competing with half of apple's genius. PERIOD.
it's pretty, but honestly i think for the majority of users people will use it once or twice out of curiosity and forget about it. unlike genius sidebar which can stay there tucked to the side for quick glances, and TOTALLY unlike genius playlist creation which will probably be used constantly by almost everyone.
MS seems to have taken style over function here, hmmmm...... wasn't that what all these MS fanboys have always criticized about apple?!?!
bigfatduck
glaeven
Posted 2:47 AM 17/9/08
but it still cant do anything with my beatles music, so i dont care
glaeven
OMG! Ponies!
Posted 2:43 AM 17/9/08
@bigfatduck: I have to disagree. The MixView works, works fast, works well, and works with others.
And as far as the Genius on the iPod works, I wouldn't know. I have an iPod classic 1G - I got screwed with bad hardware from the get-go, when it died after 9 months, Apple was gracious enough to send me a refurb, and there has still been no word as to whether the 1G iPod will even get the Genius.
My girlfriend's iPod classic dying from the exact same cause was the final straw. When Apple can't make a working iPod, I give up on Apple. And for the record, my definition of a working iPod is "an iPod that works as advertised without hassle for more than 1 year". My iPod ClickWheel (4G) met that definition, as did my iPod video (5.5G) and nano 2G. The iPod classic is an exercise in FAIL.
On top of that, iTunes is bloated. It's somewhat akin to a shoaled whale. That I need it for my iPhone irks me.
Apple ruined its good standing with me with three botched products - iPod classic, iPhone 3G, and iTunes 8. I simply don't trust Apple any more.
OMG! Ponies!
Statik
Posted 2:42 AM 17/9/08
Do Mac users have some kind of option where they can turn off all Microsoft related content on Giz? lol
Statik
dbroce
Posted 2:37 AM 17/9/08
The PS3 is the better buy......oh, what? What is a Zune?
dbroce
Chromeo
Posted 2:33 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Ponies!: I own 2/3 of the songs you mentioned in your "Children's Music" category.
So either we're both Man-Children, or we're both super-cool.
I vote for the latter.
Chromeo
damnElantra
Posted 2:56 AM 17/9/08
@graverobber- It says Loud Pipes Save Lives: for that you shall burn!
damnElantra
Wicked1
Posted 2:56 AM 17/9/08
Its like Apple isheep fanboys forget who still leads in marketshare, by a large margin. I never trusted apple, have never owned an apple product and never will, hahaha.
Wicked1
SpudMills
Posted 3:31 AM 17/9/08
@Wicked1: If having the larger share of the market means offering bug-ridden and ugly software that barely works and offers hackers thousands of opportunities to exploit the user, then I'll stick with my Mac thanks. Talk about sheep blindly following the rest of the world…
SpudMills
JEmlay
Posted 4:02 AM 17/9/08
"Microsoft Beats Apple...."
Yeah well, get in LINE! Plenty of people would like to BEAT APPLE!
JEmlay
LenMan
Posted 3:57 AM 17/9/08
@Wicked1: That was really good. You related to the PC in the Switch ads?
LenMan
.endejas.
Posted 4:30 AM 17/9/08
@graverobber- It says Loud Pipes Save Lives: It recommends both albums and songs. I think it depends on what you're playing.
Used it earlier today and ended up buying a few songs.
.endejas.
superbad
Posted 4:28 AM 17/9/08
@ARP: "A great improvement to MS's version is if they could do a 3D Time Machine interface, where for a given band (e.g. Interpol), you could "travel" back to their influences and precursors (Joy Division), left and right to bands in the same general family (The National) and then forward to contemporaries."
I just wanted to quote that because it's a great idea. I would buy more music if I could navigate easily like that (and play samples at the same time).
And hats off to MS- they've come up with a great interface.
I'm listening to my first Genius playlist right now- it did a pretty good job and threw me some stuff I haven't listened to in a long time (along with a few bad dogs). I switched off the sidebar right away because I am not interested in buying music from them. I do wish it would tell me *why* it recommended something- is it just pulling crap up at random, using Pandora style analysis, AllMusic Guide links, or what?
superbad
TheHeartless
Posted 4:25 AM 17/9/08
@flaxseed: Actually, it is. Look at the source bar on the left, it's in a Genius playlist that has not yet been saved.
TheHeartless
Kaiser-Machead on the Edge
Posted 4:21 AM 17/9/08
Looks very interesting. I'll download it tonight. 'Til then, I'll reserve judgment.
Kaiser-Machead on the Edge
Fused7
Posted 4:08 AM 17/9/08
Wow, seriously apple boys, gtfo and stop being such a bunch of smug #@$#ers,
"Apple pwns j00r jajajajaja, M$ is old and boring and ugly!"
*cue Zune 3.0*
"Lawl thats the genius side bar! not the actual genius! lern2blog! Apple has more market share! Apple has iphone jajaja"
get this:
Microsoft has a larger market, namely the fact that theres a shit tonne more of XP and vista machines than overpriced apple shit.
Faceit, M$ outdid apple this time and now all the apple boys are getting their panties in a bunch.
Fused7
marm0lade
Posted 4:07 AM 17/9/08
@SpudMills:
"offering bug-ridden and ugly software that barely works and offers hackers thousands of opportunities to exploit the user"
You do know that the Macbook Air was hacked in 2 minutes at the CanSecWest convention this spriong right? Ohhhhh you forgot? Let me refresh your memory:
[news.cnet.com]
And now I will fix your comment:
If having the smaller share of the market means offering bug-ridden and ugly software that barely works and offers hackers thousands of opportunities to exploit the user, then I'll stick with my PC thanks.
marm0lade
Fused7
Posted 5:11 AM 17/9/08
Ladies and Gentlemen, I am now convinced that the LHC did in fact, create a black hole.
look at JD's responses to Zune now, it's DEFINITELY a parralel world... or maybe not so parralel after all.. maybe even... PERPENDICULAR!
Fused7
oboesqueaks
Posted 5:07 AM 17/9/08
The MixView display is really cool and as far as recommending songs, it sounds like they do it better. However, if you ignore the Genius sidebar (not a winning idea Apple) and just use it to create playlists, it works quite well. At least if you are like me and have a ton of music you haven't gotten around to listening to because you've been stuck on the same two artists for months/years.
oboesqueaks
airmanchairman
Posted 4:59 AM 17/9/08
Both approaches are quite clever-looking, with the MS display slightly more so (gasp), but IMHO they certainly need a little more music history knowledge...
For instance, I was expecting that when Bob Dylan came up during Steve Jobs presentation, Hendrix's "All Along the Watchtower", Manfred Mann's "Mighty Quinn", Aaron Neville's "With God On Our Side" for instance would pop up in the list as definitive cover versions of some of the great audio-bard's ditties that are worth adding to the user's compilation.
Probably just my opinion, but definitive cover versions in general (Joe Cocker's mighty deconstruction of the Beatles' "With A Little Help From My Friends", Whitney Houston's tear-up of Dolly Parton's "I Will Always Love You", Luther Vandross's smooth rendition of Cilla Black's "Anyone Who Had A Heart" etc) should be an integral part of what the Genius and MixView do.
airmanchairman
xaflatoonx
Posted 4:56 AM 17/9/08
THATS IT!!!!!!!!!
THE END IS HERE!!!!!!
JESUS is actually praising MS - and not only that - he is dissing Apple.....
this has gotta be a sign!!
xaflatoonx
TheWerewolf
Posted 3:56 AM 17/9/08
Holy Crap.
Did I just read Jesus Diaz actually saying that something Microsoft did is *better* than something Apple did???
Did I just read a post on a Microsoft product by JD that doesn't have ONE SNARKY COMMENT about Microsoft?
Did hell just freeze over?
Wow - first a positive review over on Engadget and now this. Clearly, I've accidentally jumped to some strange parallel universe. :)
TheWerewolf
HansCalydon
Posted 3:21 AM 17/9/08
Aside from the much nicer visual aspect, the better thing about MixView is that, at least if you have a zune pass, you can get the music it is trying to turn you on to without feeling like you are being pitched to "Buy!" every other track like you are with the genius list. Even when it does a good job it feels a little feels skeevy. Without the zune pass it is pretty much the same thing - finding new tracks means spending more money - but at least it is an option. What they really need though is to get this on a Touch-like device.
HansCalydon
veggiedude
Posted 5:37 AM 17/9/08
What's a Zune player? Am I missing something?
veggiedude
toproy
Posted 11:38 PM 16/9/08
I have both an iPhone and a Zune 80. Honestly, I would have bought a 32gb ipod touch rather than the Zune, even though I think the Zune is a great device, but both the iPod touch and the iPhone are superior devices in every which way.
HOWEVER! How can you possibly beat having 28.62 GB (just checked right now) of brand new music in my Zune for $16 bucks?
I have a Mac Book and an iMac and most of the time I am working on a Mac environment and but I play my songs through the
"unified" Windows running inside OS X, with VM Ware.
So I go through all that trouble to go around iTunes.because by far, the Zune software is better and such a much better deal.
10,000 songs in Zune = $16.00 a month
10,000 songs in iTunes = $10,000.00
you do the math.
toproy
efenili
Posted 6:22 AM 17/9/08
comments started to degrade about 30% down...still impressive though :)
efenili
Alphabool
Posted 6:53 AM 17/9/08
@flaxseed: No; it is Genius in Cover Flow.
Alphabool
BeowulfRex
Posted 7:20 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Ponies!: Fair enough. I consider myself open minded, so let's give it a side by side comparison, especially if I don't need a Zune.
Off to the Zune software site we go. Let's see, which version do I need to download? Cool, here's a link: [support.microsoft.com]
Funny, there's no version for Mac OS X... wait, what's that sound? Oh, it's the silence from how well Zune software works on any platform but Windows.
As the iTunes screen capture above is from OS X, and the Zune graphic is from Windows, I say again: straw man.
BeowulfRex
cyclonus5150
Posted 7:18 AM 17/9/08
Okay so the one point that nobody seems to want to factor into this discussion is device integration. We all know that Genius playlists can be transferred to and created on iPods and iPhones. Unless I'm missing something completely, you can only use MixView on deck and it doesn't appear that it generates a playlist.
There's really no utility in it at all yet 3 different bloggers have now claimed that it beats Genius. It sure is pretty but honestly, what does it offer beyond that?
Also should mention that Apple updated remote.app for iPhone/iPod Touch today to include full Genius integration. You can now create and edit Genius playlists using your entire iTunes library from your device.
cyclonus5150
vgart
Posted 7:10 AM 17/9/08
Ummm, sure it looks cool, but it doesnt work all the time. I heard that somewhere....hmmm Vista perhaps...
vgart
OMG! Ponies!
Posted 7:08 AM 17/9/08
@BeowulfRex: Why not just try the software?
It's free. You don't need a Zune. It won't move your files. It downloads and installs quickly. You can always uninstall it. That's as low-risk as it gets.
The only reason I'm seeing for people not trying the software is "I don't wanna".
OMG! Ponies!
OMG! Ponies!
Posted 7:06 AM 17/9/08
@bigfatduck: And I have to strip off all the DRM from my iTunes purchased AAC files. And the ones that I can't find anymore from transferring computers, drives, etc. - they're gone.
Subscription based is less than $200 a year. That's $4 a week. Sounds nice.
(and there's this bay that's full of pirates, but I don't know anything about that)
OMG! Ponies!
TheVaingloriousKeithOlbermann
Posted 7:05 AM 17/9/08
I just want to know how the Apple logarithm connected the Dave Matthews band with The Clash.
That's like saying Eastern Kentucky State and Harvard are similar because they are both institutions of higher learning.
TheVaingloriousKeithOlbermann
BeowulfRex
Posted 7:03 AM 17/9/08
@J.D.: Nice job going back and changing the iTunes graphic from this morning. That said, your article is still setting up a straw man comparison. You're claiming that iTunes is something it isn't, then faulting it because it isn't what you claimed it was.
From the Apple iTunes site: "Meet Genius: a brilliant way to create perfect playlists. Play a song, click the Genius button, and iTunes creates a playlist of other songs from your library that go great together. Genius playlists help you discover songs in your library you never knew you had - and rediscover forgotten favorites."
Now according to your article, iTunes fails in comparison to MixView because "Genius recommends songs that you already have" in your computer. Um, yeah, according to Apple that's kinda the point. And you state that "MixView shows music you may find interesting based on a playing song in a graphical way. It also shows the relations graphically." One can only assume from your use of repetition that MixView's graphics are important to you.
And there's the important bit. To you, music sounds better when there's a graphical relationship between album covers. To me, and quite possibly other folks, it's the music itself that determines its quality, and how well it goes together in a playlist.
BeowulfRex
bigfatduck
Posted 7:00 AM 17/9/08
@ those of you complaining that the itunes genius is "selling" you something, as opposed to the mixview which if you're a subscriber lets you just download it:
dude, are you so blind that you don't realize you've ALREADY BEEN SOLD??? of course the song is free, you're locked into paying them for the rest of your life if you want to keep that music. it's worse than leasing a car, or renting a house for your entire life. it shows you're a SUCKER.
if anything, mixview is 100% to sell you music while genius is only 50% to sell you music, because genius has function beyond just selling you crap- it works with the music you OWN (like, really own- not rent) whether you purchased from apple or not. think about it
bigfatduck
BeowulfRex
Posted 7:45 AM 17/9/08
@OMG! Ponies!: Not really, no. Because that's not the topic of conversation in any way, shape, or form.
To recap, what is the topic is how MixView compares to the Genius function of iTunes. Graphically it's superior, according to the article. I will grant that the collection of album covers displayed is pretty. However, my point above was that album covers have nothing to do with the quality of the playlists generated by each piece of software.
Your response was to challenge was for me to try the Zune software for myself. As your article showed iTunes running on a Mac, I attempted to download the Mac version of the Zune software, only to discover that there is no Zune software for the Mac. No open comparison of software features is possible, as the Zune software only runs under Windows.
None of this has anything to do with bugs within iTunes 8 on Vista.
BeowulfRex
ichi1
Posted 7:39 AM 17/9/08
When you grab a hold of me
Tell me that I'll never be set free
But I'm a parasite creep and crawl I step into the night.
Two pints of booze
Tell me are you a badfish too? Are you a badfish too?
Ain't got no money to spend
I hope the night will never end
Lord knows I'm weak
Won't somebody get me off of this reef
Baby your a big blue whale
Grab the reef when all duck diving fails
I swim but I wish I've never learned
The water's too polluted with germs
I dive deep when it's ten feet overhead
Grab the reef underneath my bed
It's underneath my bed
Ain't got no quarrels with God Ain't got no time to grow old
Lord knows I'm weak
Won't somebody get me off of this reef
Ain't got no quarrels with God. Ain't got no time to get old
Lord knows I'm weak
Won't somebody get me off of this reef
ichi1
OMG! Ponies!
Posted 7:28 AM 17/9/08
@BeowulfRex: So then we're agreed that the general bugginess of iTunes 8 on Vista is Apple's fault.
OMG! Ponies!
newSeasons
Posted 8:07 AM 17/9/08
Looks complicated... I think the earth will stop the day that Microsoft really beats apple on some thing. All they do is copy apple but as we can all tell, they are never successful. Good try though... Keep um comin!
newSeasons
bigfatduck
Posted 9:14 AM 17/9/08
@ OMG_PONIES, you wouldn't have to strip DRM from anything because you don't *HAVE* to purchase anything from the itunes music store. and here's the beauty of it, one that i've been trying to make this whole time but apparently the MS fanboys can't seem to grasp: you don't even need to be shopping to take advantage of apple's Genius. it's main purpose, as noted by a previous poster, is to generate playlists using what music you already own. as i said before, this is a GODSEND for people such as myself with a large library of varied music.
mixview is comparable to apple's old ITMS model, if you want to find something new you leave the library browsing view and go to the store to find it. there you can find recommendations for you based on your previous purchases and what you have searched for in the past. granted, mixview takes this a step further by (theoretically) giving better recommendations, but the idea is the same. you have to WANT to go shopping and stop what you're currently doing in order to do so. in this way, apple's genius sidebar (half of genius) is superior and brings more convenience to shopping. you can even preview and purchase/download the songs directly from the sidebar without leaving the current library view.
and aside from that, i still don't see how people are jumping to the conclusion that mixview will provide better recommendations over time. i think the general assumption is that this is because it leverages "the social"? did anyone bother to read that apple's genius is gathering and analyzing data from the ENORMOUS itunes install base and music store purchases (#1 music retailer, most popular music player, remember?) to make it smarter over time? that's what makes it "genius", and i see no reason to believe mixview will be any better for recommending new music.
bigfatduck
Mac007
Posted 9:12 AM 17/9/08
Everybody's tastes are different. Some folks favor Chevys while some favor Fords. I personally am not impressed with MixView. It's too confusing and not all that pretty. Now iTunes and Genius look more organized and attractive to me. It's all a matter of personal taste when you get down to it. As for the fanboy stuff that's pretty juvenile and all sides are guilty of it.
Mac007
p1p3r
Posted 8:45 AM 17/9/08
I prefer Genius.
Graphically, I don't even think MixView is good looking - it looks like a cheap photoshop job of cut and pasted albums randomly and unevenly put together on your screen... oh wait...
p1p3r
KronikFpLiOnYkD
Posted 8:44 AM 17/9/08
@newSeasons: You are the deffinition of a fanboy.
KronikFpLiOnYkD
witnessx
Posted 9:32 AM 17/9/08
It starts as a ripple...
witnessx
diabolusunknownTheSecond
Posted 10:10 AM 17/9/08
I really wish the picks, channels, and mixview was somehow integrated on the player. Now that i can view the marketplace on my player, im using it to find out about new bands, listening to the preview songs, and adding the albums to my cart so i can Amazon up the CD's based on those selections (since i go lossless all the way).
Unfortunately, Zune Marketplace doesnt know what to recommend a Black Metal listener. I cant blame them really.
But with this new marketplace integration, they are making it hard to not subscribe. Really hard.
All i can say is this is one hell of a home run. They scored big time with this update.
diabolusunknownTheSecond
diabolusunknownTheSecond
Posted 10:24 AM 17/9/08
@diabolusunknownTheSecond: Scratch channels from the list since i just saw that in the sync menu. Pretty cool that you can update your channel at any wifi spot.
diabolusunknownTheSecond
spyguy99
Posted 12:02 PM 17/9/08
Hmm...Strange...Every time I try do to MixView for Dimrain47 I get John Mayer...It also seems that the Marketplace does not know them either.
spyguy99
kylo4
Posted 11:53 AM 17/9/08
Microsoft is doing well now with their program now, the iPod is really gaining a true competitor now.
kylo4
Galley
Posted 11:50 AM 17/9/08
@Rabid Penguin:
The original version of "Bananaphone" by Raffi.
Galley
shorty6049
Posted 1:03 PM 17/9/08
@Jeff Martin: like it matters?
shorty6049
Jesus Diaz
Posted 9:27 PM 17/9/08
@TheVaingloriousKeithOlbermann: That too.
Jesus Diaz
Jesus Diaz
Posted 9:26 PM 17/9/08
@oboesqueaks: I like to create playlists manually. I guess I'm from the mix tape generation. High Fidelity and all that. I have some automatic ones, to compilate stuff when I feel like listening to a particular artist. The rest of the playlists are manual.
So for me, the biggest thing about Genius is the recommendation engine, which is what Jobs said in the Let's Rock event: discover new music (so we can sell you more.)
This mission is better accomplished by MixView than Genius.
Jesus Diaz
halloweenjack
Posted 3:29 AM 18/9/08
Funny how the Apple haters on this thread were practically licking their chops at the prospect of the Apple fanboys having a hissy fit, then got all sulky when the fanboys insisted on sticking to the facts. Sad, really.
As for MixView itself, yeah, it's worth looking at. But I wouldn't dump iChoonz and use the Zune software exclusively any more than I'd dump OSX for Windows Vista because MS threw in FreeCell.
halloweenjack
JackHeffez
Posted 7:27 AM 17/9/08
Mixview is a more powerful and advanced application. The additional features are more useful and informative with a better looking interface. It's a matter of time before its popularity will overtake Itunes. All empires fall, their are no exceptions. Sorry SJ, you better get your team cracking on the next version.
JackHeffez
jollygoodlad
Posted 9:17 AM 18/9/08
So does this mean we'll be drinking out of different water fountains? Bathrooms?
jollygoodlad
Mister_Snitch
Posted 10:16 AM 22/9/08
Gotta tip your cap to MS when they get something right. And I'm glad they're so determined to keep Apple on their toes.
Still, let's face it: Hitting the bullseye once every 20 or so tries won't cut it.
Mister_Snitch
dahveed
Posted 4:08 AM 19/9/08
This is great! As a consumer, I love it when ANYBODY makes something that works better than the competition. Maybe Apple will respond with an improved iTunes in a few months. Nothing like a good competition to improve everyone's product offerings. Nothing brings on mediocre products and services like a monopoly. Don't believe me, try doing business with your local city government, school district, or MS 5 years ago...
It is also surprising that MS has managed to leap ahead of Apple (maybe) in a music app. I would really be surprised if they don't screw it up by some customer screwing business policy (selling your info to third parties). MS has a way of giving the consumer 1 thing at the cost of another...
dahveed