@lilaliendog: That is a lot of IT dept/guys. You realize that there are about 3,141 counties in the United States right?

Joseph

I'm pretty sure someone once said "it's not the voters that determine the outcome of the election, but those counting the votes"...

Kaspir

@Joseph: they are paying big bucks for someone to run it, might as well pay a top notch it dept/guy to run the show.

lilaliendog

@ViperBorg: True, but how many county offices would you expect to have a top notch IT department?

Joseph

Am I the only one who is falling asleep with this video?

RE-L

@Joseph: And you gotta love the admins that don't disable it.

ViperBorg

I am so glad my local county registrar de-certified all the electronic voting systems.

HDC

Windows... gotta love autorun.

Joseph

@Mith: And I hear Obama is a secret Muslim and he plans to paint the Whitehouse black and Biden is secretly a Soviet era robot. Not that I'm taking sides or anything.

@OMG! Apple Stinks!: Actually if you want to tamper with it you just have to get to the people that count the ballots. Or the people that maintain the machines. Or the people that transport the machines. Or the people that handle voter registration. Human software is almost always the most vulnerable point of any system.

Elections have been rigged long before 2000, and in some places pretty blatantly. Get over it.

junyo

@benbot80: Really? I figure there aren't enough intelligent people in the US when Bush got his second term.

UltimateIdiot

@OMG! Apple Stinks!: I miss those machines. There's something satisfying and final about the big "zzzzzzz...CHUNK!!!" when you pull the big, red handle to record the vote and open the curtain.

yelraf

@Joseph: I would imagine that most, if not all, of those 3,141 counties in the U.S. all have their own IT departments, already.

yelraf

@Mith: Someone who actually talks sense. It amazes me how many people I have seen on thein internet desparately trying to push McCain as an amazing presidential candidate.

The rest of the world is just watching in awe at how level the runnings are. If McCain actually wins ,it would just prove that there aren't enough clever people in the US.

benbot80

@Mith: lol, all that, then "I'm not taking any sides here". Ha, you're hilarious man.

Kaspir

@Joseph: only about one county... The White House.

hindsight2020

I wouldnt think rigging the voting machines woulda make any difference anyway, its not like our votes really carry impact on how the election is gonna turn out..

Only in a country like this can u have the republican party have a under 30% approval rating yet still be neck and neck with Obama/Biden.. they are against a man who IS going to die during his presidency, and cant tell the difference between Sunni and Shia, and fumbles up basic sentence structure like a senile old man would.. and a crazy right-wing woman who doesnt know what the Bush Doctrine, thinks Dinosaurs were on the planet 4000 years ago, and thinks the clusterfuck in Iraq is all apart of God's plan.

I'm not taking any sides here.. but in the very rare case the machines ARE rigged.. I don't think its gonna make enough of a difference in the end. There are plenny of flaws within the system aside from trojans that can sway elections to different outcomes.. and im sure someone high up has thought of them.

Mith

This is what we use in NY:

Mechanical switches and levers. If you want to tamper with it, you have to bust open the thing. And the order that the parties appear is random - it might be Republican-Democrat-Libertarian-Independence on one machine and Democrat-Republican-Independence-Libertarian on another.

OMG! Apple Stinks!

Jerry: "Hey Bill if you have something up your sleeve for stealing the election again, gimme a sign, like a but wiggle."

SuperMacGuy

@junyo: "Elections have been rigged long before 2000, and in some places pretty blatantly. Get over it."

Sorry, my friend: I think that calls for a well deserved "FUCK YOU". If this election is stolen again, I'm going to start lighting shit on fire in the streets.

@benbot80: That was already proven in 2000 and 2004.

@UnderLoK: Actually, if you're motivated enough, you can read in detail what they both propose. You just have to use "the google" or go to their websites.

johnnyabnormal

@junyo: It's a pretty secure system.

The machine just records numbers using mechanical switches. The ballot is assigned to the machine separately on the day of. So rigging a machine the week before (or even the day before) or in transit does no good because you don't know what ballot is going into it.

You can't doctor the count because a rep from each party records the numbers jointly - they're each writing down the same counter.

Voter registration - NY allows for affidavit balloting at the polls if your name doesn't appear in the books. We don't turn people.

No butterfly ballots or accidentally voting for one person instead of another - here's what our ballot looks like:

And the order of columns is different on the one next to it. The only "problem" with lever machines is finding parts.

We've had them for over a century for a reason - they work. This is probably the only good use of steampunk in existence. Forget hackable code - give me steel levers, gears, dials and switches.

OMG! Apple Stinks!

It's a computer… It being exploited isn't a surprise as we all know it's only a matter of time.

@Mith: I'm more concerned with what plans they both have for resolving current pressing issues such as the housing market / economy, health care, social security, and the like rather than worry about semantics.

Let's talk brass tacs here... It is unfortunate that neither candidate has actually addressed how they will fix our current financial situation and it is inexcusable.

Let's take the housing market and banking in general for example. They talk about plans to prevent these kinds of things happening again, yet they fail to realize that these (among other things) are CURRENT crises which need to be addressed NOW. In other words, do you want someone to lead this country who would see someone get in a horrible car accident where the car is on fire only to talk about how the accident could be prevented in the future or someone who would rush in and pull the person out of the inferno?

Unfortunately for us, neither candidate would pull anyone from the fire as they are too busy talking about how to prevent things that are still current issues.

UnderLoK

I all comes down to who has more chads anyway.....

:)

aec007

@OMG! Apple Stinks!: Yup. I'm gonna miss the ol' clunkers when they go...

ideaman2020

Electronic Voting is the best thing the republicans have ever invented.

ProSeven

@UnderLoK:

McSame's "mystery fund": Borrowing from the Chinese.
Obama's "mystery fund": Taxing the rich fairly and compensating for what they've been weaseling out of for so many years:

News flash: TRICKLE DOWN ECONOMICS DOESN'T WORK. One only needs to read the headlines today to see the effects of tax codes favoring the rich, deregulation and greed.

Wake up people:

+ Watch video

johnnyabnormal

You don't need to hack the voting machines when the voters themselves are so much easier to hack.

Killjoy

@johnnyabnormal: "By the way, if you want to have a peep into McCain's healthcare plans...MORE TAXES:"

Pshua, more taxes? You mean the money won't come from the mystery fund that allows us to expand public services, fix the economy, save the housing market, and do it all while lowering taxes?

Side note, to the Google comment: I have read the facts which is why I bothered to post. The problem is the "details" as you put it aren't very detailed and by and large refer to reform and lowering rates for sub-primers which is not a solution. ;)

UnderLoK

@Dancing Milkcarton:

"I'd rather have someone who actually VOTED than someone who's too worried about his political future to do so."

What is with this avalanche of stupidity?

Barack Obama has missed 293 votes (45.7%) during the current Congress.
John McCain has missed 410 votes (64.0%) during the current Congress.

So, maybe you should vote for Obama? Duh. Btw, if you want less government, vote RON PAUL. McSame is only increasing the grip that the govt. has on your nut sack.

johnnyabnormal

No matter who is elected, no matter how they are elected, so long as both sides keep *We The People* arguing with each other over the Liberal vs Conservative viewpoint, BOTH sides will continue to rob us blind and ruin our country. Stop arguring with each other and turn it on THEM.

A House Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand.

Curves

McCain FTW.

Take you big government and shove it.

I'd rather have someone who actually VOTED than someone who's too worried about his political future to do so.

5 years in the Tiger Cage for you.

Dancing Milkcarton

I feel like half the country is asleep or has been in a coma for the past 8 years:

Fact: Housing crisis, wages stagnated, inflation up, jobs shipped overseas, endless wars, credit crisis, erosion of civil liberties, pathetic value of the dollar, bloated gas prices, etc. ad nauseam.

McCain voted with Bush:

95% of the time in 2007
100% of the time in 2008

How can ANYONE vote for McCain/Palin?

johnnyabnormal

what's so frightening, we would get robin williams or colbert in office.

jkr's bold comment

@johnnyabnormal: That's change I can believe in.

Although, to be honest, the class warrior in me wants to vote for a candidate with the cajones to run on the "Tax The Hell Out Of The Rich" platform.

OMG! Apple Stinks!

@aeroworks: "Here is a good idea. Lets tax the SHIT out of the ones who pay our salaries. Yeah! Great plan! what could possibly go wrong."

I see you fear your overlords, peasant. You know, I think this sounds even more stupid:

"Let's give the richest people in the nation the most tax breaks!"

johnnyabnormal

Here is a good idea. Lets tax the SHIT out of the ones who pay our salaries. Yeah! Great plan! what could possibly go wrong.

As for the USB stick problem. why not have authentication codes printed on the usb sticks behind a special scratch off thingy like lotto tickets??

aeroworks

@Curves: Amen. This country's polarized itself so hard for so long that it's killing all possibility of intelligent discourse and action. We, as voters, need to hold both major parties equally accountable for their words and their actions.

Ubik2501

@Dancing Milkcarton: Please enlighten me as to the last time the Republican party actually followed the principles of small government and fiscal conservatism. If anything, "Big Government" has only gotten bigger with the current administration.

I mean, I like those principles too, but neither major party has acted on them since before Reagan took office.

Ubik2501

@aeroworks: Ya no doubt? What could go wrong? The complete collapse of the housing market? How about rampant inflation, that suddenly reverses itself and turns into plunging deflation? Or investment banks buying mortgages so crappy that it brings down 11 banks and 3 of the largest investment firms in the country? Or ya.. they'll usher in energy deregulation that allows corrupt companies to manipulate state markets so well that it .. oops .. causes rolling black-outs followed by the death of the largest energy broker in the US and the oldest accounting firm in the world.

Oh? That's already happened? We're already in the shitter thanks to those "small-govment" conservatives?

Sorry, the system is broke it. The "ones who pay our salaries"? They helped break it. Last time it happened (last 4 times, actually) it took the Dem party to fix it. I think I know where my trust is (and it's not in electronic voting machines that simply CAN'T have paper cuz that's just too complicated and .. umm.. paperiy).

If there's humor to be found in the collapse of Lehman Bro. Holding, its this: they survived the fall of the railroad empires, the Great Depression and 2 World Wars after ~158 years. But they couldn't survive 8 years of Bush.

Faust

@RE-L: Who's stopping you?

johnnyabnormal

I still dream of voting for Ron Paul...

RE-L

@johnnyabnormal: Actually no one. I'll write it in, fakk it.

RE-L

Hacking a Voting Machine = Four more years!

Whooo!

In your face Democrats!

fluf

oh America. I love you and I love technology. But seriously, why the fuck are we using these completely-hackable pieces of trash? I feel more "patronized" than "patriotic" when I vote on a touch screen. Give me paper ballots or give me electoral FRAUD! It's obvious! Everyone knows it! Death to the electronic voting booth! Long live ACTUAL democracy!

gloveofpower

@fluf: Keep it up & you'll see Dems become VERY gun friendly.

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal: You say 'stolen again' like you have any proof other than patchouli induced paranoia. Democrats have stolen more elections than anyone else, and amazingly enough, the republic didn't crumble. So STFU and vote and stop throwing around nutso theories about shit that you can't change without a time machine.

And I'd be careful about taking it to the streets, since Republicans have most of the guns. Starting a fire on my street would be a really bad idea.

junyo

@OMG! Apple Stinks!:
[www.dailykos.com]

"Supposedly" don't know what ballot is going in a machine. There are a finite number of combinations, therefore a finite number of ballots. On the ballot shown the lever positioning is customized for the size of the section, therefore before seeing the ballot you know that the top register is for the governor/lt governor spot, and that there are only six possible combinations, and 1/3 of the combinations will have a specific candidate in a specific slot. I understand the machines have an internal counter that's reset before voting begins and increments as votes are cast. It would be trivial to preset the counter for a slot, and then mark the machine and then insure that at the polling place your inside person inserted ballots that had your candidate in the proper position.

The point is these machines are the result of a long and deliberate process needed precisely because people have been tampering with elections as long as there have been elections. People that think that any as yet unproven vote rigging in 2000 was some shocking new development are quite frankly idiots. There's evidence of voting fraud from elections in ancient Athens 500 years BC. The lack of fraud in an election is far more about the personal integrity of the poll monitors and counters. And whining about it, and contesting every new bit of technology is just job security for the people that know how to tamper with the current system.

junyo

@junyo: Word of the day for you, sir: Plutocracy.

johnnyabnormal

@junyo: Oh, whatever, tough guy. Republicans are all bluster, no action. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, so stuff yourself into your own restrictive little ideologue box. Yes, the 2000 election was stolen. Yes, independent non-partisan counts after the election proved Gore won Florida. Yes, there was voter suppression of minorities and key districts who vote Democratic. Yes, there were ballots thrown away that were for Gore.

But! As expected, I noticed you pull the classic wing-nut move: Blame the victim and claim to be one. Show me one Democratic president who's daddy's minions on the Supreme Court halted a election and handed the election to him.

Maybe you should "STFU" and stop voting for rich white people who shit on our country while laughing all the way to the bank. Btw, it's laughably naive of you to think I'd light fire to a residential neighborhood. That's not where the meat is.

johnnyabnormal

@Kaspir: "'m pretty sure someone once said 'it's not the voters that determine the outcome of the election, but those counting the votes.'"

I'm guessing a loser. AlGore, Kerry, Obama...

@Mith: "Only in a country like this can u have the republican party have a under 30% approval rating yet still be neck and neck with Obama/Biden"

Whose party in congress has an approval rating of less than a third of that. Only in this country is the press so biased that Obama could even got nominated. Hillary '08!!!

"and a crazy right-wing woman who doesnt know what the Bush Doctrine, thinks Dinosaurs were on the planet 4000 years ago"

Lies. Don't you have school in the morning?

"I'm not taking any sides here.."

Nuff said.

@benbot80: "If McCain actually wins ,it would just prove that there aren't enough clever people in the US."

If Obama wins, it will prove that there are way too many radical socialists and liberal dupes in this country. Thank God that's not going to happen. Sorry, Dupe.

@UltimateIdiot: Too easy. Descriptive name though.

@junyo: "Elections have been rigged long before 2000, and in some places pretty blatantly."

Chicago comes to mind.

@johnnyabnormal: "If this election is stolen again"

Again? It was unsucessfully tried in the last two elections. Maybe Obama will have better luck.

@johnnyabnormal: "Let's give the richest people in the nation the most tax breaks!"

It's hardly a break when they're virtually the only ones paying income taxes in the first place. How do you give a break to someone who's not paying now?

@OMG! Apple Stinks!: "Although, to be honest, the class warrior in me wants to vote for a candidate with the cajones to run on the "Tax The Hell Out Of The Rich" platform."

That's Obama '08!!! Unfortunately, the rich are paying your salary, or buying your goods or services, i.e. driving the economy. Yeah, let's take their hard earned wealth and flush it down the sinkhole of government, before it can get to you, or me, or the economy as a whole.

@johnnyabnormal: "you'll see Dems become VERY gun friendly."

Now that's change I can believe in!

@johnnyabnormal: "Yes, independent non-partisan counts after the election proved Gore won Florida."

Oh Johnny...

GadgetPlay

The second that people found out that computers could be exploited, they should of been rejected for use in elections. Honestly there should be cameras from either behind or on top of the machine looking only to see if people are tampering with the equipment.

Thats my two cents.

Dradik27

@GadgetPlay: "It's hardly a break when they're virtually the only ones paying income taxes in the first place. How do you give a break to someone who's not paying now?"

Did you watch that Warren Buffett video I posted? (not to be confused with Jimmy Buffett!) The rich actually get huge tax breaks and all sorts of loopholes. Buffett, a billionaire, pays around 17% while his secretary pays around 30+%. It's all of us below $600,000 a year that pay the most taxes.

"Now that's change I can believe in!"

Very true. I don't know why most Democrats are into abusing 2nd amendment rights. Gun laws are proven to have no effect on a criminal's ability to get a firearm. Yet, all the laws restrict law abiding citizens. Totally illogical.

"Oh Johnny..."

Seriously, look into it. There were even recounts done by researchers from other countries.

"Lies."

I would hope so, for Palin's sake. Her church is not hiding the fact that they believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. It has been documented that they believe the earth is that young, that people and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time....even that you can "cure" homosexuality.

johnnyabnormal

Hold on...

"While it is highly unlikely that a hack like this could be implemented in such a way that it has a major impact on an election, it is a frightening prospect nonetheless."

Like most people, you're confusing "threat," "risk," and "cost".

By your own admission, while it's possible this could be done, it's unlikely it could be used to do anything significant. That means it's a real THREAT - but not a real RISK. There's also no analysis of whether such tampering can be detected after the fact - that's the COST part.

There are countless threats - walking across the street is fraught with them, for example, and a failure to estimate the risk means either never crossing the street, or getting killed.

It's easy to trot out a list of potential threats - especially when you take devices like this out of their environment - because there are procedures and supervision in place which are conveniently removed in this test - akin to arguing that cars are unsafe because if you remove the brakes, it's really easy to run into walls at high speed.

I really wish people would get over the paranoia of voting machines and start looking into the fundamental problems with the American electoral system - like the unnecessarily complex balloting system that comes from having federal monies just handed to the states to run federal elections as they see fit withouth any obligation to stick to any standards.

Or blatant, non-electronic tampering such as in Florida 2000 when as many as 50,000 people were removed *illegally* from the vote registration because they were pardoned felons from other states or worse, people who looked like them (oddly, mostly Democrat supporters...).

TheWerewolf

The duration of that video is 9:11. Interesting.

vee-media