@Hectorvex:
Ah... Yes and No. I think you are right about them not searching every laptop but I think you've got it wrong about why we haven't been attacked by terrorists. The whole security thing is a bunch of smoke and mirrors for the most part. I mean how do you stop something that you don't know about. You can't.

Every time they flex their muscles to show they are "protecting" us the terrorists win. Which leads me to the comment made by dandaman247. They don't have to attack to terrorize us. We do a pretty good job of that our selves. Look how damn scared most of the US is right now.

It's like a country of paranoid schizophrenics here.

LiquidGravity

@totoro: I got my degree from Wikipedia. Socialism is a middle ground between capitalism and communism so we have to pass through that before we get to communism.

In a Marxist or labor-movement definition of the term, socialism is a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by...

Joseph

Wahooo.. I love living in fear. Just remember questioning the Governments is unpatriotic and anyone doing so is obviously a communist, fascist, pinko, terrorist loving, America hating liberal! Oh wait, unless there is a Democrat administration… Then its okay.

glowplug

@Keirmeister: Actually the First Congressional Congress made it legal.

"That searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the border, should, by now, require no extended demonstration." Authorized by the First Congress,88 the customs search in these circumstances requires no warrant, no probable cause, not even the showing of some degree of suspicion that accompanies even investigatory stops.
[www.law.cornell.edu]

kirby822

Yeah, this has been around for a while, pretty much with the signing of the Patriot Act. It's a shame that probably none of our elected officials, the ones that we put into place to protect our interests, read the darn thing.

I'm pretty sure that police are actually allowed to peruse through your belongings without warrants too as long as they aren't locked. Locks also include passwords for electronics though. Of course, I think that they're also allowed to break that rule if there is "A thought of suspect" meaning "Hey you in the black leather trench coat, I like your iPod. I'm gonna take it cause it looks like a possible explosive."

trethlyn

@totoro: It has nothing to do with any "ism." A king, a dictator, even a well functioning democracy can have severe search laws. BTW- police states can be right wing as well (See-Nazi)

They can do this since its a border. The issue isn't whether they can search your laptop, its what they can do with the data. Right now they can do whatever they want with it: post it all on myspace, enter it into a database to better track you, etc. So the constitutional issue isn't border security its using your data for purposes other than to determine if you're smuggling something illegal in.

Think about it this way- your work probably requires you to notify them if you loose your laptop. If you have customer data or confidential information on your lappie, you might have to tell the customer because the privacy of the information is not assured- you don't know if it will be protected. So your company can get into trouble with its customers for disclosing its data even though you've done nothing wrong.

ARP

I have absolutely no problem spending my tourism dollars in my own country.

wingbatwu

I'm no lawyer, but this is obviously a clear violation of the spirit of the 4th Amendment. However, the court has made it legal:

[en.wikipedia.org]

To me the flaw is obvious. The court uses the excuse of terrorism and a nation's right to protect itself as justification. But that is REINTERPRETING the law to fit the times, as opposed to making NEW laws to accommodate it.

Keirmeister

@jabber: @OMG! Ponies!: I completely understand that its a "legal" practice and has been in place for a long time. However, all the fear inducing crap that has gone on in recent years has made protecting our borders more important than say....feeding our poor and jobless....keeping our people healthy....I see it as a backwards way of taking care of your own thats all.

Joseph_Shaw_520

I think this all stems from the 9/11 guy #20, the one who missed his flight. He was caught in eagan MN(a suburb of the Twin Cities) trying to learn how to steer a plane in mid-air. Zachari, I think that is his name, had a laptop with all the flight plans for all the planes and an FBI woman in St. Paul wanted to look inside it. Some Beaurocrat decided against it in August 2001. In November 2001 they snooped in the laptop anyway and found the plans. IF THIS CAN HELP IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS EVER HAPPENING AGAIN, THAN I FOR ONE, A BLUE BLOODED TAX PAYING 41 YEAR-OLD AMERICAN, AM ALL FOR IT. Don't carry sensitive material with you. There are all kinds of places to securely store it off-site and access it via the intertubes. If they have to stripsearch EVERYONE who enters this great country to prevent that from happening again then I am all for it. If you don't like the rules, GTFO. My $.02

TerryinSt.Paul

So long as they don't border my snatch on a laptop, I am okay with it.

zenpoet

@Jason: hey, my cellphone does that too!

Spkl

@Jason: Have you been attacked by a tiger lately? Looks like that rock is doing it's job.

kirby822

@Platypus Man: You'd be surprised. If it was originally designed and manufactured under contract to DoD, you can bet that they have negotiated a means to get around it so it can't be used against them before they would allow it into consumer use.

Elvisisdead

@Jason: No, by my logic you'd have to cover that rock with Lion piss first.

Hectorvex

@Platypus Man: Good plan. Until they seize your computer.

The files on your computer are cargo. There is no functional difference between a document you typed into Word and the printout. Imagine you had a locked box that you refused to open. They'd seize the box.

The printout is subject to search; the file is the exact same thing. Airports are borders. Different standard applies.

OMG! Ponies!

@Hectorvex: By your logic, I could claim that this rock here keeps tigers away.

Jason

Whole disk encryption. They can take it, but I don't have to make it easy.

Elvisisdead

OK, all we need to do is go buy Ironkey flash drives, designed for the US Military. Encrypts your data and if 10 incorrect password attempts are made, the data is forever corrupted. OK, it's $150 for 4GB, but still... Come on, guys...

Of course, it was designed for the US Military, so maybe they know secrets about it? Let's hope not.

Platypus Man

@s017jrs: Think about showing a caveman a lighter. Same principle.

Elvisisdead

@Joseph_Shaw_520 @kalenoble: Sorry to burst your bubble but RTFA. It is legal. All signed, sealed, and delivering your ass to the Feds:

"In April, the Ninth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in San Francisco upheld the government's power to conduct searches of an international traveler's laptop without suspicion of wrongdoing."

jabber

Why do you want to make me angry on a Friday Giz? Why?

GHETTO.CHiLD

@Git Em SteveDave is a poor substitute for LindsayJoy: Yeah its easy to track cell phone devices and snatch conversations right out of the air. I vaguely remember someone listening in on someone else conversation with some sort of dish in their backpack... or maybe that was stealing credit cards.

Joseph

Sure way to have your laptop taken: Have a file on the desk top marked "Laura Bushs Naked Pics and Sex Tape". Be sure not to mention W. since I am pretty sure NO one wants to see him naked. Not even Laura.

Curves

Maybe if they would just offer better training to the people doing the searches...
This was an airport, not the boarder but the concept is the same -
I lost my RSA token to the TSA (Thousands Standing Around) because he didn't know what it was and the numbers changed by themselves (What is this magic?! Numbers don't change by themselves!)...
Really? Come on. It's a bloody token!

s017jrs

This has nothing to do with Socialism. Had you studied an 'isms' in school, you'd know better. What it is, illiterate comrade, is that we're turning into the Commies we fought so hard against! Now be quiet, do as you're told and get used to the government knowing everything about your bowel movements. Da? Its good for the country.

totoro

@kirby822:

I agree. The US Supreme Court in its wisdom hath decreed that the Constitution does not apply at the border while anyone (including US citizens) are seeking entry or re-entry into the US. They even allow the Border Patrol to search you and your vehicle without warrant up to 50 miles inside the border.

Barcard

@soulfinger: Yeah, then they are gonna start tagging your stuff, and badging everything and monitoring when you can leave, who you're leaving with and controlling everything you do. It's small steps that lead to it, not one big move.

Joseph

@MR OPTIMUS PRIME: No reason given? I can think of a few VERY good reason to limit the use of cell phones. Someone figuring out how to trace them to use as a locator, someone figuring out how to evesdrop, using the frequency they broadcast as a trigger, and the list can go on. I'd like some more info if you could.

Git Em SteveDave is a poor substitute for LindsayJoy

@wanago: @Joseph_Shaw_520: @kalenoble: @Mr Josh Zombie:

Let's calm down. I'm no loyal Bushie, but the rules regarding search-and-seizure has always been that border searches require no warrant. There are some areas of the country that have always been permitted to play by different rules. Military bases are one. "Borders" are another.

OMG! Ponies!

C'mon. You think they are snatching up every laptop from every businessman coming in through JFK?

From the article:

With about 400 million travelers entering the country each year, "as a practical matter, travelers only go to secondary [for a more thorough examination] when there is some level of suspicion,"

I'm not defending the practice, I think it sucks. But they are right, the most dangerous stuff is on data files. However, I'd expect a lot of lawsuits to come from this - a lot. Especially if they don't find anything (which they probably won't.)

But even if they don't search any laptops (as it would be impossible to search 400 million people) it will do well as another scare tactic deterrent to possible terrorists. We always huff and moan about the policies, but how many attempted terror attacks have been shut down or given up because of these policies? It's a number we can't track. A number we can track is how many terror attacks have happened on American soil since these policies were put in place - 0.

Everything the government has done to prevent terrorist attacks in this country has been unpopular with the people, this another example. And a lot of it has come close to violating our rights as free citizens. Don't worry, as soon as Israel attacks Iran the whole world will change and you'll be praying for these days to return.

Hectorvex

@kalenoble: The amendment applies to _unreasonable_ seach and seizure. It would seem that they have now declared this as reasonable.

I'm getting really worried about my country.

hakubak

Don't know the law, but I'll pretend to.

From [www.law.cornell.edu]
"But the same requirements for brevity of detention and limited scope of investigation are apparently inapplicable to border searches of international travelers, the Court having approved a 24-hour detention of a traveler suspected of smuggling drugs in her alimentary canal"
While that case applies to someone shoving drugs up their ass, the lack of brevity of detention and limited scope sure seems like they can search what they want and take their sweet time with international travelers during an investigation.

Just remember, you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride.

kirby822

@Mr Josh Zombie:
woo! naked pictures of... umm... that guy!

s017jrs

Yeah well, after working here in Baghdad Iraq for over FOUR YEARS now, we were just told we couldn't use cell phones AT ALL anymore.

Someone sitting around has nothing better to do but make up inane rules. This is getting so childish.

MR OPTIMUS PRIME

crap like this is the reason i don't travel. but, then again, if the govenment wants to see naked pictures of me, then i'll be more than happy to pose for them.....

Mr Josh Zombie

"US senators like Russell Feingold are in a tizzy, and hoping to soften the policies through legislation"

Uh... Isn't searching and siezing property just because I'm leaving or returning kinda fall under one of the constitutional amendments? The one about search and seizures?

kalenoble

"Socialism here we come!"

It's not socialism. Non-socialist countries can also have a big brother complex.
It's just intrusion plain and simple.

soulfinger

@Platypus Man: It is illegal...much like everything else this fear loving administration has done with our rights.

Joseph_Shaw_520

Knock knock!
Who's there?
9/11
9/11 who?
YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET!!!!

wanago

Just another wonderful policy brought to us by 9/11...i wonder why the T's haven't attacked us again...oh yea...maybe because we're losing our freedoms one after the other, so their hatred becomes less and less!

Feck ya!

dandaman247

This seems... illegal? Maybe I'm just not well-versed in these laws, but something here seems wrong...

Platypus Man

Socialism here we come!

Joseph

They'll take my pocket litter when they pry it from my COLD DEAD HANDS!

(holds up a tissue and 35 cents in nickels)

strider_mt2k

^^ ha!
That'll teach 'em to look inside your... umm... laptop...

s017jrs

this is why i always have a nice high res pic of the GOATSE on my desktop when i travel.

bobojuice

My laptop has some pretty tight encryption on it. 10 bad password attempts and the drive gets wiped.
Go ahead, take it. Do what you want with the hardware, don't really care - but the data is mostly safe. Sure, anything is crackable. If someone is ambitious enough to get past safeboot, my porn collection is all theirs.

s017jrs

@Joseph_Shaw_520: You're confusing the issue.

The issue here isn't homelessness or universal healthcare; it's whether Customs may legally seize a computer to inspect its contents. Please remain on topic.

OMG! Ponies!

@LiquidGravity: You are correct. The country immediately asked the Government, "What are you doing to protect us? We're scared." The Government reacted. Had the Government said, "Nothing, reaction is what they want," the ignorant masses in this country would have been in an uproar and demanded that they start setting up tedious checkpoints at airports manned by half retarded morons and minimum wage asshats. So it was a lose-lose for the Government.

Hectorvex

@Joseph: Socialism here we come!

The word you are looking for is authoritarianism. Which can be either communist or facist or anything in-between.

wjousts

@Keirmeister: "But that is REINTERPRETING the law to fit the times, as opposed to making NEW laws to accommodate it."

It's a little from Column A and a little from Column B.

It is reinterpretation inasmuch as it looks to the intent of the Border Exception - to interdict contraband and potential threats - and applies it to new technology. What is the difference between transporting bomb-making plans on paper or in a computer? Is every person going to have his/her drive searched? No. But not everyone has their bag searched either.

It is making a new law inasmuch as it broadens the ability of Customs officials to actually inspect the contents of the drive should an officer deem it prudent. Judge-made law has been the bedrock of American Jurisprudence for two centuries now. Unless legislation is passed countermanding it, it's valid law.

As to your intent-based argument, I'd counter with "what is the intent of the Border Exception?" To interdict potential crime such as illegal narcotics, hazards such as bombs and the like, fugitives, and State secrets.

Many things are legal and constitution that may give you the wicked heebie-jeebies. If a city wants to install security cameras in all of its parks to watch for crime, that's not a violation of your Fourth Amendment rights as you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a public park. Does it go against the original intent of the Constitution? Probably. Is it Constitutionally-permissible? Yes.

From a functional standpoint, a computer is a box of information. It is a storage medium. It is cargo and subject to search at the borders.

I understand where you're coming from but the best way to effect change is to work from within the system, using the law to change itself. Think of it as Constitutional Judo.

OMG! Ponies!

Haha and people laughed at the insane measure I use to encrypt my hard drive. It's not completely sealed but they are gonna spend a lot of time try to figure it out

superbryant

You know, statistically it WOULD decrease the chances of a terrorist smuggling anything dangerous on to a plane or into the US if...

- NO TRAVELERS WERE ALLOWED TO WEAR CLOTHING OF ANY KIND
- NO TRAVELERS MAY BRING ANY PHYSICALLY TANGIBLE OBJECT WITH THEM DURING TRANSPORT
- INFORMATION OF A DANGEROUS NATURE WAS "LIBERATED" FROM THEIR BRAINS (THROUGH MILDLY INVASIVE SURGERY)

There, I just protected the nation!!

bombs_away

Love your country, Fear your government

Unknown2U

@Joseph: Well, yes and no. Here's the flattened, imperfect version.

Marx's earliest works were essentially descriptions of history. According to Marx this is how the transition would happen (and then later, must happen, and then later still seemed to start accepting that we should help make it happen.)

But socialism itself is more of an economic than a political stage. That is, it's about the redistribution of wealth, and can happen just as easily in a political democracy, for example, Scandanavia (or, according to our more right-leaning friends Canada, the U.K., etc.)

The political aspects of communism, usually involving taking centralized planning to awholenother level, including infringing on all basic liberty interests, are not exclusive to communism. Fascism, for example, allows for just as much central control, but in a corporatist, capitalism-off-shoot economic system. Really any dictatorial model can have any of these features.

Economic Models: Capitalism, Socialism (+) Political Model: Central Control = Fascism, Communism

92BuickLeSabre

@OMG! Ponies!: Calm down?- dude I told a knock knock joke

wanago

CBP has always had the authority to search any and all containers (basically that's what a hard drive is) at ports of entry. Most Americans are unaware that you are not IN the United States at the port of entry, even if you're standing at Customs in JFK. Your constitutional rights don't really apply until you pass through and are IN the United States. Please don't mix that up with human rights or Geneva Convention rights, etc. That's a whole other topic.

vadubgeek

When you are more worried about your own government taking your iPod than you are about terrorists blowing up the plane, who has won?

MartinX

Eventually, the net will become fast enough that we'll be able to store all our data online and pull it up instantly as needed just like off a hard drive...

...and then whoever sets up an offshore service where all your data can be anonymously housed and encrypted and accessed as needed anywhere, and is inaccessable to those goverments that wish to search it, will become very popular.

I predict it won't be too much longer before that happens. Another ten years or so. Then we won't need to worry about this privacy invasion bullshit by our own government.

Elliuotatar

Land of the freedom!!!

(from a quick look at the comments it seemed that noone had said it yet)

Waka in Japan

@Platypus Man: IronKey doesn't work with Macs and you're in Macmodo fanboy headquarters. They are FIPS 140.2 compliant though which is good.

Joseph

@soulfinger: It's fascism, not socialism.

firetwuck

@Joseph: You're not going to get me to type that sentiment in a public forum that easily. Good try. Good try.

92BuickLeSabre

@OMG! Ponies!: It has already been proven:

[news.cnet.com]

For those who can't be bothered to read the article:

"A federal judge in Vermont has ruled that prosecutors can't force a criminal defendant accused of having illegal images on his hard drive to divulge his PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) passphrase.

U.S. Magistrate Judge Jerome Niedermeier ruled that a man charged with transporting child pornography on his laptop across the Canadian border has a Fifth Amendment right not to turn over the passphrase to prosecutors. The Fifth Amendment protects the right to avoid self-incrimination."

There. Proven. Worse case scenario, and it held in court.

dragonphyre

@kirby822: @Kirby , I'd like to see what exactly it says before and after that quote you made. Can you provide a direct link to that page?

firetwuck

This is very like DRM.
It only affects those trying to follow the rules.

Anyone not following the rules isn't affected by this stuff at all! It's fantastically funny!

Why not just hire an illegal to carry a flash drive with him?
Anyone stopping them? Anyone checking their pocket litter?

Not as long as they show up for work on time they're not.

What a farce.

strider_mt2k

@OMG! Ponies!:

"And let's not forget the drives filled with Social Security numbers and other personal records which get lost or get stolen. "

This should be the real concern, not bomb making plans. Any idiot can google how to make a bomb, but a list of a half million or so customers is a big issue.

s017jrs

Border Guard: Morning Sir, please open your laptop. (smiles)
You: But, it's just my personal data and family photos. (dismayed)
Border Guard: Step back from the counter. Put your hands in your pockets. Password ? (scowling)
You: U_R_A_F_K_H_D. (dry coughs)
Border Guard: Son, you got anything in here you wouldn't want your Uncle Sam to see? Or your Mom? (sneers)
You: No Sir, Mr. Guard, SIR! (deer-in-headlights stare)
Border Guard: You got any nography in here, Boy? (leering grin)
You: Why is that, why, why is, is that your business? (gulps)
Border Guard: Slow day. I'm bored. Sit over there. I'll be back in a minute... (shit-eating grin)... (door slams)... (swinish laughter)... (door opens)... (footsteps returning)...
Border Guard: If you have some CD-RWs we'll let you off this time... if not, we'll have to impound your computer. Just because. (drooling)
You: I don't have any and this is so unfair. It's just STUPID and WRONG! (stomps way supressing a huge smile even though the cocaine-stuffed condom feels like it was about to burst...)

ANoel

@OMG! Ponies!: I appreciate your counter-argument, and can understand the objective reasoning for this. I don't have a problem with public cameras because, indeed, I don't have any notion of privacy when I'm literally "in public". That said, I don't see any difference between my personal data and papers, and my wallet. The 4th Amendment lists "papers, and EFFECTS". These are protected unagainst UNREASONABLE searches and seizures...and shall not be violated....etc.

I guess my problem is how "unreasonable" has been defined in relation to border crossing. The 4th Amendment also says "probable cause" should include a good description of what the authority is looking for and where.

Now I don't expect this to be done for all of the people streaming through a border, and I also don't think the amendment necessarily applies to non-citizens. Perhaps I would feel better about this if the government actually specified real guidelines (have they? I haven't seen anything). But this current trend of, "we search anything we want, whenever we want, and take whatever we want" is thoroughly un-American. It's like cutting off the leg of what this country stands for to save it from the hangnail of terrorism on our toe. How can we be assured such powers will not be abused (as it already has been)?

Surely a country as "great" as America can come up with a better solution.

Keirmeister

@Noobs-R-Us: Aldrich Ames wrote requests for meetings with his Soviet counterpart on a mailbox in DC. Robert Hanssen used a strip mall in Aspen Hill, MD as a drop off location for information. Drives of classified information used to go missing from Los Alamos at an alarming rate.

You'd be surprised at how low-tech espionage can be.

And let's not forget the drives filled with Social Security numbers and other personal records which get lost or get stolen.

OMG! Ponies!

@KLanD: No, I get it. We live in a state of fear perpetrated by the Government, fueled by the people. We still have every freedom we've ever had, and even more by the looks of the comments here. No one is being branded a witch. And how can you compare tighter restrictions at the border with Nazi Germany? That was genocide. Look, the bottom line is - go visit a communist country, China, then come back here and tell me that we ain't free as shit and will continue to be?

And it's not about "getting it." It's all opinions here. You are no more right in your theories than I am in mine.

Hectorvex

Fascism plain and simple. This administration is as bad as the brown shirts were in Germany in the mid 30's. Playing the fear card again.

firetwuck

@TerryinSt.Paul:

IF THIS CAN HELP IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS EVER HAPPENING AGAIN, THAN I FOR ONE, A BLUE BLOODED TAX PAYING 41 YEAR-OLD AMERICAN, AM ALL FOR IT

Benjamin Franklin was absolutely against you on that one - Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security or Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. I would think that any blue blooded tax paying 41 year-old American should know that.

You do realize that if they shot you dead when you tried to re-enter the country, then we would all be assured that you wouldn't hurt any of us, or execute a 9-11 style attack, right? Being a blue blooded tax paying 41 year-old American, maybe you should shoot yourself to protect this great country of ours. That would make you a true patriot in my book. That being said, I hope you don't shoot yourself, as you seem like a nice enough guy - I just happen to disagree with you.

As for "If you don't like the rules, GTFO," that sounds to me like taxation without representation, as representation is the only thing allows us to change the rules by which this fine country of ours is goverened. I'm pretty sure that we fought a war to avoid having to GTFO if we didn't like the rules. We're supposed to be able to make the rules and change them.

Munch the BanNail

@92BuickLeSabre: @wjousts: So Fascism here we come?

Joseph

@dragonphyre: I look forward to reading US v. Dragonphyre, which will hold that seizing an encrypted computer is analogous to seizing any other locked container when the owner refuses to open the container for inspection.

OMG! Ponies!

Come one people, think, what's the real reason they want to do this!??! As if anything that's a real threat to the U.S. will be carried on their person? They can set up or upload any information they want to any server in the world. Why would anyone bring it on their little laptop, HD, or iPod???

This is just dumb and used purely to fuck with the citizens like a police state.

I will say again,

"When a government is afraid of its citizens there is a Democracy. When citizens are afraid of its government there is tyranny!" - Thomas Jefferson

What we have here is only about 2 degrees away from China except the citizens are too dumb to see it.

Noobs-R-Us

@KLanD: And if, for example, you have encrypted your laptop's data and refuse to permit a search, it is no different than having a locked box which you refuse to open for inspection.

The box is seized so that it may be inspected.

OMG! Ponies!

Just encrypt your drive. They can't make you give out your passphrase, as that would be self-incriminating and is covered under the 5th amendment...

For as long as that is still around, anyway.

They also can't hold you forever, as they have no reason to suspect that you are a ciminal--so eventually they will have to let you go--sans laptop, of course.

The much easier way is to simply ship all your stuff via UPS before you fly anywhere. No checks. No lost luggage. No hassles.

Whoops, was a little hasty in that last one there. They will hassle you (no luggage is a dead-sure way to get hassled at the airports) but since you have nothing on you you will get out of there pretty quick.

dragonphyre

@KLanD:
They are searching it. Just they're taking their sweet time doing it. Maybe they couldn't tear themselves away from that mario kart tourney for... oh... I dunno, 3 years. They'll search it eventually, don't worry!

s017jrs

The Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in the case of US v. Arnold may be found here:

[www.ca9.uscourts.gov]

Give it a read. It is well-reasoned and, surprisingly, does not treat a computer as something talismanic or magical. It is a box of data.

OMG! Ponies!

Ummm.. ya... I'm so glad I live in Canada.

@Hectorvex: You don't get it do you. Every time you lose a freedom, the terrorists wins. What happens when you have no freedom left? Are you going to say "Damn, I can't go outside after dark and all I get to eat is beans and a piece of pork every night, but at least I'm safe from terrorists." Welcome to Germany 1942.. umm I mean USA 2012.

@OMG! Ponies!: I agree, No warrant searches are standard practice at borders. However, Seizure without reason is not. They may SEARCH your laptop if they want, but they cannot SEIZE it without reason. This is in the US Constitution.

I think everyone in the US needs to go to YouTube and search for Jesse Ventura. That man could save your country, if you'll only listen to him.

KLanD

@KLanD: See, maybe that's the thing - nothing has changed for me personally. I've flown many times since 9/11 and I get the laziest, moronic TSA agents possible. And I'm a 6'1" Jew with a beard and I violated several of their "rules" such as the prescription pill one (I just have them loose in a zip lock, I like a grab bag.) That's the thing, on the surface it looks that way, like we're losing freedoms - but when you detail down to the airports, it's still at the discretion of the TSA asshole working the stand. He's just got more things to check now.

And you can go back anywhere in history and see Governments doing similar things to "protect" their people or whatever. Bottom line, whatever Germany was doing was in preparation for an invasion because they were committing crimes against humanity.

Hectorvex

@Joseph: this is a lot of things. but it ain't socialism.

Titus_Andronicus

This is a data mining project from the Govt. Plain and simple.

No criminal or terrorist in their right mind is going to keep data on a laptop they are carrying with them. And if they are they are stupid. The internet is WIDE OPEN to transfer your dastardly plan from whatever misguided angst country you are from to the US.

Also, are the confiscated laptops making it back to the original owners if there is no suspect material found? Or is the Govt having a yard sale with your $1000+ laptop?

Something stinks, wait... it's U.S.

axiomatic

@OMG! Ponies!: If you have nothing to hide, why wouldn't you let them have a look? I fly at least once a week and as long as you're courteous and cooperative they will have no REASON to seize your laptop.

@Noobs-R-Us: Couldn't have said it better myself. I totally agree.

@Hectorvex: I'll give you that. However your freedoms are slowly being taken away from you under the guise "protection". I wasn't implying the US is a fascist country atm, but it is heading down that path. Compare the steps Germany's governet took leading up to the second world war to the current governments "war on terror", the similarities are staggering.

KLanD

C'mon people, isn't it obvious here, we just have not given it a good catchy name yet! I mean, don't we all feel good about the "Patriot Act"? That makes me feel great, like I am a patriot. And you know, when they tap into your phone and data lines and watch everything you do, like post smart ass comments on giz, it is for our own good. And if they "accidently" do something illegal we will sign a law that protects all phone companies from doing anything illegal. Yeah, I wouldnt worry about it, our government is hear to H-E-L-P us!

andrelix

@Keirmeister: Your clothes may be searched. Your alimentary canal is a different story.

If I were you, I'd hide the chip in the most obvious place: the cell phone.

Yes, they can probably search the files on your cell phone; no, they probably won't think to do so.

The bottom line here is this: stay off the radar. The guy who encrypts his drive and won't decrypt it - he's on the radar. The guy who doesn't act like he's got an encrypted drive - he's probably off the radar. The airport is not the place to become a civil rights champion and no, you really don't want your name in a Criminal Law & Procedure textbook.

OMG! Ponies!

moral of the story, don't carry it on your lappy 386, just email it to yourself.

James

@mercury69: How about they just destroy your house? I'm good with living.

Hectorvex

@mercury69: Well I, for one, welcome our insect overlords!

Keirmeister

I can't wait till the aliens come and distroy our planet, this world is getting worse everyday.

mercury69

Here's another question: Does a 16GB microSD card trip off a metal detector? What if it's hidden inside a belt? You see where I'm going with this...

Keirmeister

@LiquidGravity: I don't believe our citizens are scared. I don't know one person who is actually worried about a terrorist attack. What people are worried about is the direction our government is taking to stop this ghost threat. That and the thought of a natural disaster that the government can't respond to because all of their time and money is tied up in our 'Git tha Oil' program.

atomx

@TerryinSt.Paul: Anything else you'd like to give away?

@KLanD: "I'm so glad I live in Canada."

Bet you don't get to say that too often. :-)

Toshie

@dragonphyre: Nice to see you're doing some research to back your position up. It's good work and makes for good commenting. Thank you.

OMG! Ponies!

@dragonphyre: That's a Magistrate Judge's opinion. The Magistrate generally administers the case through its discovery phases, although the parties may agree to have the case finally adjudicated by the Magistrate as well.

It is scheduled to be heard by the Article III District Court Judge overseeing the case, and will likely go to the Circuit Court, and finally the Supreme Court. It's a case of nisi prius - first impression - and isn't just going to end.

Constitutional law is a marathon, not a sprint.

OMG! Ponies!

What's going on is not socialism, communism or fascism, it's statism. It is the state growing for its own purposes. Look at the state like an organism. It acts to preserve and increase itself. All states, of all political stripes, grew enormously in power in the twentieth century.

propertius

I don't buy the "this prevents terrorism" reasoning. I would rather have my liberty. It reminds me of a quote from Benjamin Frankling. "He who trades liberty for security deserves neither."

falandil

Loonies 73, Common Sense 18 (about the normal spread)

@ARP: "be right wing as well (See-Nazi)"

Nazis were LEFT wing. National SOCIALIST Party.

GadgetPlay

@Joseph: Well yes... but its so much harder to have discussions with nuance. Can't we all just agree that everyone else is a Nazi of some variety and Bush is a war criminal who is saving america and Obama is a terrorist who offers us all messianic hope? Now everyone's happy!

Hiphopopotamus

@Hectorvex: I'll agree with you, most TSA don't give a shit about what they're doing. But sometimes you get that one "By the Book" A-hole who just drills everyone. Most know that the "Rules" don't prevent anything.

KLanD

@radikaled: I wouldn't go that far. I mean it's a cautious time. If someone breaks into your house... you're not just gonna leave the front door wide open for another attack. You'd probably secure your house, get a gun, maybe get a security system to secure your doors and windows, and want some higher police presence in your neighborhood. I understand you want to be free, but attacks usually trigger an initial overbearing defense.

Joseph

I never got my RSA token back. I took my tinfoil hat off and everything!

s017jrs

@axiomatic: They try their best to return it to you, but its hard to keep tabs on you with that tinfoil hat on. They normally just send them to Area 51 to the human-alien hybrids they have been secretly raising into an army to steal other countries oil to power our jet into space to fly to the moon for the first time, as all the other ones were faked.

Hiphopopotamus

As far as I am concerned the terrorists have already won. Once your own government starts to take away your freedoms one by one, I consider that a success. Although Osama is up there on the list, I would have to say some people in white houses, and buildings with columns are a close second in terms of creating fear in the hearts of people.

radikaled

@Keirmeister: LMAO!

I'd also like to give you all the definition of "Patriot", cause I think some of you have forgotten what it means.

pa·tri·ot Pronunciation[pey-tree-uht, -ot or, especially Brit., pa-tree-uht]-noun

1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.

2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

"of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government" Makes the "Patiot Act" seem kind of ironic, no?

KLanD

@Hectorvex: LMAO!!!!

Joseph

@redrabbit: Going through customs security at an international airport with that attitude, you'll be the one sucking balls no matter which way you spin it.

Hectorvex

They can suck my balls because I'd never hand over any of my electronics, that's bullshit.

redrabbit

@Titus_Andronicus: yeah its Awesomeism!

Joseph

Bringing blueprints over the CDN boarder landed a friend's dad on the terrorist watch list.

Doesn't matter that he's an engineer and was working on a project to renovate a building right near the peace bridge... Dude had blueprints, so now he's lucky enough to be "randomly" selected for additional screening any time he travels.

s017jrs

@OMG! Ponies!: This is when you have a hidden high-encrypted partition and a regular vanilla partition. In the high-encryption section I 'd have a bunch of noise data and a single text file that said, "Fuck you feds."

BadBoyNDSU

this is going to inspire a whole new generation of USB Flash Drives in totally unnecessary objects.

They'll never know I have 16 GB of blueprints stashed away in my hemorrhoid cream!

Hiphopopotamus

@GadgetPlay: Just because the current Chinese government still calls itself communist doesn't mean it is.

92BuickLeSabre

Another waste of my tax money....
Physically carrying data is so 90's.
Encrypt your data.
Store it on a PC with access to the internet.
Travel with a clean notebook.
Get to your hotel.
Download the data
Unencrypt it.
Use it.
Encrypt it and send it back.
Wipe the data on the notebook using any of several apps that overwrites it multiple times.
Go home with a clean notebook.

If terrorists can't figure this out by now, I doubt we have anything to worry about.

nospamsam

@Hiphopopotamus: LOL tinfoil hat eh? I don't usually go for the conspiracy theory sillyness but I would be interested to know if they actually did suspect you of something nefarious do they copy the contents of the drive for later perusal or do they only manually check it?

My initial comment was tongue in cheek. The difference in my reply to you though... I didn't insult you.

axiomatic

@92BuickLeSabre: Sadly, it is one of the few links that I am collecting that shows the government trying to do good for the people--rather than just for itself.

And I realize that it isn't a Supreme-Court ruling or anything--but the law in this country is set by previous rule, so every little bit helps.

But thanks for the thanks. :P

dragonphyre

@Hiphopopotamus: Your house must be very exciting around election time :).

Joseph

@MR OPTIMUS PRIME: Satellite phones. They're technically not cell phones...

... or just use WiFi Skype phones. Or Skype periood.

Dakota Courtois

@redrabbit: Legal arguments aside, that's a great way to miss your flight.

Here's my anecdote from when I was younger and more idealistic (i.e. stupidly short-sighted). The Patriot Act was just enacted and the TSA was bumbling their way through security. I mentioned to the TSA worker that I thought the security was bullshit. Specifically, I mentioned that asking for a print-at-home ticket without verifying the information was even valid was a big security breach.

He took me aside and asked me a couple of vague questions. He then said he was just following regulations and that he had no input in the matter. It was at that moment that I realized that I was being a douchebag. I was taking out my frustration at the government in a completely ineffective manner.

The TSA agent was pretty kind. I didn't miss my flight. The airport isn't the place to make a stand.

Let criminals like Mr. Boucher (child pornography) make case law by not opening their electronics because they're transporting contraband. All you have to gain from being petulant at the airport is a missed flight. Your time is better spent writing a letter to your representatives in Congress while in flight.

OMG! Ponies!

I've gotta say, why would anyone carry sensitive data on a laptop when you could put it on a MicroSD card that you could smuggle thru customs in your belly button, or between your toes, or anywhere else you wanted? I just hope that the terrorists are as dumb as the TSA and Customs think they are.

Munch the BanNail

Of course, we tend to keep all of our juicy stuff encrypted on an x-drive in the ether...so we don't much care.

RainyDayInterns

@92BuickLeSabre: It should be noted that a police state can appear in any part of the political spectrum. The problem is not the social philosophy, but the way it is implemented.

twilight-arc

If you are dumb enough to keep sensitive stuff on an internal drive, then they should take it away from you.

Flash drives, DVDs, etc...are all available options for moving data. If you have stuff you need to hide, why WOULD you keep it on an internal drive of a laptop?

RainyDayInterns

you shouldnt be leaving the usa then. traitors.

fostina1

Thats it I'm moving to Russia the land of the free!

Froggmann

And it's official, I have finally lived to see the day where people start smuggling flash drives in their rectum.

unibrow4o9

@GadgetPlay: I certainly agree with the point that lefties tend to look past bad/evil on the left. It's why Che Guevara still gets love and Cambodia got a lot of love while the "party" was destroying its own country. Apparently in Korea, there are lefty student groups that think North Korea must not be all that bad, because they are "communist." It drives me crazy when my lefty bretheren are apologists for regimes.

But they still weren't socialists; they were right-wingers.

92BuickLeSabre

@Hiphopopotamus:

Just make sure that tube of cream isn't over 3 ounces and is packed inside a 1 quart ziplock bag...

chasmm

@Hectorvex: True That.
@Hectorvex: Lmao, he'll take a suck balls entrée with a good ol' tasering for dessert.

Duckspwn

@92BuickLeSabre: And because China isn't still TOTALLY communist doesn't mean that the name wasn't accurate. Lefties tend to equate "bad/evil" with "right wing" which is not the case.

GadgetPlay

Good thing we have encryption!!! Good luck doing anything with my laptop!!!

JEmlay

"Homeland Security Can Snatch Your Laptop at the Border, No Questions Asked".

And obversely, the worst part... and I know you Ladies will agree... they can "laptop" your snatch!

ANoel

What happens if a doctor has patients' private medical data on his/her computer and the TSA seizes it? Have they violated HIPAA orother medical privacy laws? I suppose it's how they use the data, but it may be just the fact that Joe Bureaucrat now knows all about Jane Patient's cancer is an invasion of Jane's privacy, and a HIPAA violation. She certainly didn't do anything wrong and wasn't even trying to cross the border or get on an airplane.

Barcard

@wanago: Too soon...too soon....

But funny...lol

This gives more motive to what is argued in the loosechange documentary...google it.

doobiebros2two

Just replace the hdd with a blank one, or with a minimal install. Ship/mail your REAL HDD home. problem solved.

If you're on a Mac, boot off an external drive. store your porn on that. Then your internal system disk is fine.

spectator101

I blame Canada, but that's not say that this is anywhere near right. Trouble is this country just isn't the way it used to be and there are not enough single voices out there to really make enough of a sound and, when they do manage it'll fall on deaf ears from too much iPod and attention spans that're shorter than today's commercials. This place is trouble.

aboriginal

ok so how do i smuggle 18 GB of my home made porn back home?

henhen

This is really a non-issue.

Customs and Border agents have always had the right to inspect and detain items that are either deemed illegal or potentially hazardous.

It's simply a reflection of changing times. If you found child pornography on photo prints twenty years ago, that's easily detectable.

Now that they're stored on disk means that the inspection methods have to adapt to allow for the new media.

No big deal.

moogybaby

@Hectorvex: There are a number problems with this security theater.. First, how effective can it be if once you get into the States you could ssh into some server in another country and get your files? And what will that do to prevent someone from loading files onto a micro SD card and stuff it under the cloth insert that's in most sneakers?

Second, this gets the populace more and more accepting of violations of privacy. Even - or perhaps especially - if they aren't affected directly, they'll think, well it doesn't have anything to do with me, I'm not suspicious, only people who are interested in doing wrong will be afraid of it.

Finally, and quite possibly the worst one of the three: it gives people a false sense of security, that things are being done to secure the country when in fact nothing useful is being done.

bluemonq

"any device capable of storing information in digital or analog form," including hard drives...

If its that much of an issues, pull the hard drive out and be on you way. It does not say anything about your laptop, just the memory. If you want to get fancy you can pull the hard drive apart and give them the platters. :0Þ

As it goes i don't believe they will have anyone at the border with the intelligence to keep the data from the ram in your computer viable.

CoolTri

You really have to wonder how many civil liberties will be sacrificed for the sake of security. Also I don't find it so comforting to live in Canada, because I do travel to the States often enough and hope to continue. Also while our government may not be quite as paranoid it is craven. Thus I expect Ottawa to emulate this policy like they have every other stupid little security regulation that the TSA has come up with, to keep Washington from balking.

Thrubeingcool

@wanago: HA! That was comic gold. Im telling all my friends, I bet I get a couple of boos out of it.

everfade

- Get encryption software that actually works.
- Put in a password that you can't brute force for 100 years.
- Encrypt your private data and you can keep your noughty honeymoon pictures to yourself :)
- Sue the government for damages and cost of equipment if they don't return your electronics within a certain period ( 1 week ? 10 days ? ) ... granted not sure if that would work - try at your own risk, but the previous points stand.

StarControl

@TerryinSt.Paul: That was one of the worst comments today. You are the product of kneeling in submission to anything our government says because they use the guise of "Homeland Security". Even if the terrorists aren't winning you are letting yourself be ruled by the fear the government uses to manipulate the population.
Why dont you try opening your eyes.

everfade

@Barcard: Since when has the Administration been afraid of violating not only laws it has created, by the very Laws from whence it's power is derived?

Unfortunately I think we Americans, as a whole, have grown too timid to challenge The Government. There was a time when the people weren't afraid to rise up - I think those days are gone now. Of course there are still many - such as those on this board - who aren't like that. But do you represent the majority or the minority of the 280+_Million Americans?

"A Government should be afraid of it's People - People should not be afraid of Their Government."

DigitalNoise

Yay for encrypted files stored REMOTELY.

AlphaTeam

Engadget carried a story on how to beat the security, but I can't find it. Guess the TSA made them pull it. It was basically:
1) Create an encrypted backup of your system on a micro-SD card and your home computer
2) Do a fresh install of your OS of choice onto the laptop
3) If they claim the SD chip, break it. You can always re-install from the copy you (hopefully) made at home.

I would just make sure that I had nothing illegal on my laptop, M6, and thumb. On the other hand, I'm running Kubuntu, so they'd have a little bit of trouble getting in. Disk encryption rocks!

kanon

@Hectorvex:

You sound like a sheeple. Do you know how many car accidents I've been in since the patriot act was passed? "0". Maybe they are related? Or maybe your an f'ing idiot!

This is America, Land of the terminally stupid, home of the chicken shits. There hasn't been ONE single law passed that has made us any safer. Only less free.

rhett121

@StarControl: "- Sue the government for damages and cost of equipment if they don't return your electronics within a certain period ( 1 week ? 10 days ? ) ... granted not sure if that would work - try at your own risk, but the previous points stand."

And then the US government announces that hey, you can't sue your own government, not when National Security is on the line. Sorry about losing your machine, just consider the cost of one laptop to be your "happy joyful donation to the cost of fighting the War on Terror. Now be a good sheeple, and buy a new laptop. And don't forget to pay your anti-terrorist tax at the cash register, Citizen!"

Ed Becerra

Ed_Becerra

@BadBoyNDSU:
"In the high-encryption section I 'd have a bunch of noise data and a single text file that said, "Fuck you feds."

And the problem with *that*, BadBoy, is that they'll put you up on 'wolfcry' charges. It's already been said by several minor courts that "pranking or taunting a homeland security agent" is an offense.

Remember how they over-reacted to the innocent prank that the Cartoon Network pulled with their little LED blinkies? Suddenly it was "Oh, my gawd, it COULD have been a bomb, you're guilty of causing a false alarm, that's HELPING terror, don't you know that?!"

ALong those lines, I actually once watched a (now retired) judge who was watching that grand old classic of cinema, "Airplane II". In one hilarious scene, airport security tackled a man whose only crime was to say hello to his friend, Jack. Y'know, as in "Hi, Jack!"

The judge in question - perhaps partly senile, perhaps not - wagged his head in *agreement* with the on-screen agents, and muttered that "talking in an airport ought to be a crime... y'never know." He then delivered a semi-coherent screed about how people should enter an airport in total silence, speaking only if they had some paperwork error to correct, then board and ride the plane in total silence.

It's reaching the point where one sci-fi author mocked things by writing a "Dick & Jane" style story where the protagonist, needing a plane ride, reports to a station where she's stripped, sedated, strapped to a seat (still naked) in the plane, and flown under military escort to her destination. And this is considered NORMAL.

I greatly fear that's where things will end up.

Ed Becerra

Ed_Becerra

@Elvisisdead: The trouble with that, Elvis, is that they can grab your stuff, and if encrypted, demand the password. Keep your lips shut, and they'll simply detain *you* indefinitely. "It's not *jail*, it's just detention, sir. And since you haven't been arrested, you don't need a lawyer."

Redefine what the words mean, and you can dance around ANY law.

Ed Becerra

Ed_Becerra

you know whenever topic like this comes up i read a lot of belly-aching here on giz. my question to you whiners is this, so what do you plan to do about it?

if you dont like it than do something besides whine like a beotch. i write congressional leaders a lot to let them know my opinion about these things. we the american people have the power. the problem is we're either too afraid or lazy to do something about it.

frogs_in_winter

@92BuickLeSabre: "But they still weren't socialists; they were right-wingers."

A minor quibble, the Nazis were a phenomenon unto themselves, not to be confused with what we in American politics call the "right-wing." One thing the Nazis have in common with socialists is the tendency for power grabbers to use socialism/communism as an excuse for their power grabs. We're pretty much in agreement, at least on this.

GadgetPlay

Welcome to "Amerika".

SBM_from_LA

Okay wait... their business model is as follows:

Due to the rising cost in fuel our tickets will become highly undesirable for lower-middle class and even some middle class. In an attempt to make flying more desirable we will make things more secure by stealing our passenger's shit.

"Hey boss, this is Joe. Yeah my trip just turned into a vacation, as the TSA just stole all of the AV equipment for the conference I was supporting. See ya in a week."

This why I don't fly... I refuse to give them my money.

hagrun

The "War on Terror" is over. The terrorists have won. Liberty is dead in America.

Wrendell

As for the "ism" discussion, I was taught during my masters in National security that you need to look at "isms" as a circle. In the middle on the top is Libertarianism. We will call that the neutral point as far as personal liberty goes. As you go left you go through socialism on the side to Communism, almost on the bottom. To the right you go through Capitalism at say 2 o'clock, Authoritarianism at 4 o'clock, and finally Fascism almost at the bottom. What this model shows is that as you move away from the center in either direction, you loose more and more rights, and at the end there is very little difference in Communism and Fascism (private ownership being the main difference).

crwilsn

What? The land of the free!?

So when is the U.S. changing that ape that rules the country?

DJNOLATENGO

Come on... I am sure this will be very effective. Please do not tell the "bad" guys about this thing called the internet which could allow them to move data into the country bypassing this amazing deterrent.

manuka

They are protecting the borders of our country! Wouldn't you want a terrorist or foreign agent fearful that his/her sensitive information could be intercepted at the border?

I understand that the concern is that this applies to American citizens as well, but anyone who's been through customs at any airport knows that what you bring into the country is ALWAYS subject to search.

This is non-news in my mind.

Nahnsense

This type of search and seizure at the border is legal. It has been legal for decades. It is not Marxist nor Socialist nor is it truly the product of 9/11. It is a search and seizure which is an exception to the warrant requirement of the 4th Amendment.

If you are interested read the Supreme Court case at the following free link:

[supreme.justia.com]

United States v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606 (1977).

UWS222

"If they have to stripsearch EVERYONE who enters this great country to prevent that from happening again then I am all for it." A country that would stripsearch everyone entering its borders is not a great country, but is a tyranny. Robert1014

RolfeCadkey