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Fantasy Gadget: The Ultimate Next Generation Connected TiVo Box
Posted by Jason Chen at 2:00 AM on July 5, 2008
TiVo has been setting the bar for timeshifting television (what you want, when you want it) for the better part of a decade. Its latest models, the TiVo Series 3 and TiVo HD, further refine and extend functionality to high definition TV and downloadable movies. But the future might not be so bright for TiVo, as other players such as Microsoft' Vista Media Centre, Apple's Apple TV, Netflix's Roku player, and upstarts like the Vudu aim to drink their milkshake. What's a company to do? Innovate. Use the internet. Connect users together. Go beyond broadcast TV. Here's what we think TiVo needs to prioritise in their next box in order to dominate the living room for the next decade.
Most importantly, they need to embrace the internet, which includes BitTorrent. There's no sense in fighting it since people are currently using software like TED to automatically search for and download episodes of their favourite shows. It's like BitTorrent TiVo. West Coast users can even use it to download episodes shortly after it's done showing on the East Coast, giving them the ability to watch shows before broadcast and without commercials.
A source close to TiVo we spoke to says that they've looked at BitTorrent, but they need to differentiate between BitTorrent the protocol and BitTorrent in the sense that people are using it now to pirate shows. The current TiVos are designed to record two HD shows simultaneously, which leaves little power to run the fairly CPU-intensive BitTorrent protocol now. If there's a way to use it to help digital distribution in the future, TiVo will consider adding it. Here's how we think they can use the technology.
• Use BitTorrent to download shows legally. Say you somehow missed recording a show because they changed up the schedule from Tuesdays to Mondays (unlikely since TiVo auto-updates the guide, but still possible if your internet connection is down) or you forget to set a recording for a new series or you start watching a series in the middle. Why should you be punished into waiting until the entire season is out on DVD to watch this? If you're tech savvy enough, you've already been hitting the torrents and grabbing the episodes--or even seasons--you missed. Why not have TiVo centrally record a show, then let you torrent it out, complete with commercials, if you happen to miss recording it yourself? The ads keep the studios happy, and the fact that you get to watch a show keeps you happy.
• Enable peer to peer sharing. A company called NDS tried to do this in 2007 before legalities made it impossible. Picture being able to watch shows with your friends across the country at the same time, streamed from users who've already got that recording on their TiVos. Using BitTorrent will drastically reduce bandwidth costs on TiVo, but still give a very fast transfer rate to end users.
• Stream network's web content. ABC and NBC have both started getting into web video in a big way, putting their shows online for viewers to watch the next day on a browser. Extend this to a TiVo box (keeping the ads in so people who need to get paid get paid) and you're set.
• Stream your shows anywhere, including laptops, mobile phones and other TiVo boxes. Yes, would essentially be a Slingbox built into a TiVo, allowing you to watch your shows on the go with your mobile phones without any additional hardware. But why not have your living room TiVo networked together with the one in your bedroom? If you recorded Lost on one and Heroes on the other, you could stream it to each other without having to waste hard drive space doubly recording it.
• Download movies from every service. This is a tough one, but TiVo should expand their current Amazon Unbox movie service to include iTunes, Netflix and whatever service decides to pop up between now and doomsday. Be service agnostic and everyone will love you. DVDs don't distinguish between movies sold at Best Buy and movies sold at Circuit City.
But TiVo can't survive off of networking features alone; they need to expand the core functionality of the box as well. Here's what we're proposing.
• Auto encoding and syncing to devices. TiVoToGo is fine for grabbing shows off of your TiVo, encoding them and uploading it to your iPod when you've got lots of spare time, but if you're in a hurry, it's not nearly as convenient. A TiVo only needs all its CPU power when recording two HD shows, so they can easily use the excess cycles during idle times to automatically encode shows into a format your iPod or Zune can understand. All you have to do is simply dock your player into a USB port and choose the shows you want to carry with you.
• Messaging and communications. This ties into the peer to peer sharing feature above, but being able to have Xbox Live-like messages exchanged between your friends or even being able to chat with them while you're watching the same show (group chat!) would be phenomenal. Or if you don't want their jibber jabber during the show, just chat it up during commercials. A branded TiVo wireless keyboard and a wireless headset would be optional peripherals, or you can just hook up your own USB keyboard and USB headset.
• Ultimate file playback support. The one thing that's absolutely necessary to make the TiVo the core of the living room entertainment centre is support for popular file formats. We're talking h.264, DivX, XviD, OGM, MKV, MOV, FLV, and anything else people encode their videos with. This way even users who don't have cable TV can get a TiVo and use it as a file dump for their BitTorrented shows and movies. Playing these files back easily in HD, without prior conversion, would truly make this the ultimate set top box.
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krkeegan
Posted 2:38 AM 5/7/08
ARGH! Giz you lost my nice long discussion I just tried to post.
I lack the desire to retype it all. But the gist was this. Some of your suggestions have the potential of irritating the Media companies. As one commenter already noted TiVo has to walk a fine line of appeasing them and its users.
However, I think streaming network internet content is a great idea. Right now USA is airing Olympic Trials in Swimming for an hour. And then directing their viewers to watch the remaining live broadcast online. I think more users would do it if they could watch through the TiVo. And this seems like a win win situation for both companies.
I also think that adding a similar slingbox feature would be great. Dish DVR already has this I think. Therefore in order to remain competitive I think TiVo needs to add this in the next feature.
Finally, the ultimate decoder is hard. TiVo doesn't use its CPU to decode video. It has dedicated specific video decoders. Although, you can watch practically any video type through pyTivo - [pytivo.krkeegan.com] - . And I believe when TiVo adds the YouTube support later this year Series 3s will be able to decode MPEG4/H.264 as well. But adding some of the other codecs might raise the price too much.
krkeegan
krkeegan
Posted 2:26 AM 5/7/08
Good ideas. I think some of them might be unfeasible/unlikely.
1. Bittorrent - TiVo walks a fine line keeping broadcasters and media companies happy. Adding something like bittorrent would only irritate them and provoke a lawsuit similar to replayTV.
2. Peer to Peer sharing - This would be nice, and I agree leaving in the commercials SHOULD make networks happy. But, it won't. With HD media companies have only become more restrictive with their shows. Some HD content you can't even transfer between TiVos in your OWN house now.
3. Stream Network Web Content - This is actually genius, and they should work out something like this. Right now USA is airing Olympic Trials in Swimming. They only air 1 hour of it and at the end of the broadcast they try and send viewers to their computers to watch the rest of the live coverage. If TiVo could connect to the website and allow users to watch from their TV I think more people would do it. This seems like a win win for both companies.
4. Add a Slingbox like Server - Agreed this is sorely needed. I think the Dish DVR has this functionality. TiVo really needs to add this to their next edition.
5. Download from other Movie Services - Agree, if Netflix could work something out with TiVo this would be nice. Again it just gives users better access to what they can already see on their PC. I think this one is a win win for both companies too.
6. Auto Syncing - I guess maybe. It would be cool. But encoding takes a lot of CPU power. The TiVo is running on a CPU made in like 1988 :). But seriously, as fair as I know the CPU cycles are not any lower when it is not saving a show. TiVo is always recording at least the current live show on either tuner for 30 minutes. I think this feature would require a better CPU or a separate encoding chip. I don't think the substantial increased cost is worth it.
7. Messaging - Sure this could be cool. But they need to add an IR or USB keyboard if they do this.
8. Ultimate File Support - There already is support for just about any media type through pyTivo - [pytivo.krkeegan.com] - although I agree it would be nice to just have this work on the TiVo. I believe that when the YouTube support is added to the Series 3 TiVos later this year Series 3 TiVos will be able to decode MPEG4/H.264 content. At least it seems that way.
Some good ideas. I like the look of the box too.
krkeegan
tucker
Posted 2:25 AM 5/7/08
peer to peer with bittorrent would be awesome. i frequently miss a portion of a show either because i came in on the middle of something i had not planned to record, or because the show runs a little longer than it's designated time.
i'm sad to say Jason, that features like this do require that secret ingredient you mentioned, Innovation. And it is unfortunate in this day and age that a company like Tivo, which has to rail against the television industry, does not have the power to innovate.
(hmmm... if only Apple would snatch them up)
(hmmmm... an Apple SDK for tivo. syncs with iPhone and Mac)
indeed.
tucker
Etchroi
Posted 2:12 AM 5/7/08
Yes. Nice mock-up there Logan, at first glance I was sure it was Jesus.
Etchroi
ps61318
Posted 3:00 AM 5/7/08
@krkeegan: PATIENCE is a virtue, my friend.
@MrBlahBlah: Yes. And of course the classic "Bass-o-Matic" - Laraine Newman saying "Hey, that's great bass!"
(a VERY subtle "blend" reference; hope management doesn't notice.)
ps61318
MrBlahBlah
Posted 2:49 AM 5/7/08
whenever i hear the phrase "drink your milkshake" I can't help but think of that SNL sketch where they parody "there will be blood"
MrBlahBlah
matt360
Posted 3:29 AM 5/7/08
slingbox feature would be great, i agree, but how about allowing you to stream your own content, like the Apple t.v, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, and store your own content, also like the Apple t.v. and Playstation 3, and lower the cost of their service since they have already started selling user information and recording commercials, I own a tivo now with a life time subscription, but I would replace it in a heart beat if apple, sony ps3 or xbox had a tuner, or better yet popcorn hour.
matt360
CSX321
Posted 3:53 AM 5/7/08
Amazing that none of these companies seem able to get it right. Each has some nice little piece of the puzzle, but nothing puts it all together. For example, my Moxi boxes in two separate rooms share recorded video (it's actually only recorded on one of them), but they lack some other features. I use Orb very successfully to do the "sling" thing, but I can only watch live TV, as it won't control the Moxi. (I think; I'm still working on that.) Moxi does allow you to rip your own CDs to it, as well as store photos and do slideshows, for what little that's worth.
CSX321
LowFuel
Posted 4:27 AM 5/7/08
I'll be happy if they figure out a way to support SDV, since most of my HD channels are going over to that soon, and Time Warner has no solution for me other than to ditch my Tivo and get one of their Scientific-Craplanta boxes.
LowFuel
axiomatic
Posted 4:19 AM 5/7/08
Dear Tivo,
Just DO IT!
Don't worry about regulations or fee's or anything like that. I assure you that if you build a great device people will buy it and the ridiculous amounts of money you make will easily pay for any penalties or fee's leveled at you from the MPAA, Cablelabs, or the TV majors. In fact, do whatever you can to dump Cablelabs, they are only hurting you.
You are in this to survive as a company, you need to offer something dramatically better than a cable box or a media center pc can offer.
-Ax
axiomatic
SuperCollider
Posted 4:57 AM 5/7/08
I can't tell ya how often I'm telling my friends, who have tivo, to start recording certain shows and check 'em out. It'd be super great to be able to share an episode or two with other subscribers.
How about adding a "friend" feature, letting you view your friends' season passes, click the "oh, he watches that? i want to watch that too" button, make recommendations to each other, all that jazz. Call me Mr. Innovative, but it doesn't seem too difficult to me.
Enjoy the long weekend, everybody.
SuperCollider
pete
Posted 5:41 AM 5/7/08
This would make tivo near perfect, but alas it will never happen, as Tivo is just to beholden to the media companies.
But can't all these things already be done with Vista Media Center? With no monthly fees (except for the cable cards of course)?
pete
Brawndo
Posted 5:32 AM 5/7/08
Great post. But, aren't you already able to send shows from one TiVo box in your home to another?
I'd also like to add the capability of internet viewing. I think the ability to access the shows already recorded on your box and to view them streaming on the internet (if say, you were in a different location other than your home) would be revolutionary. World Wide DVR. As far as I can tell too, that wouldn't hold the same have legal copyright conflicts with the media companies as say the TiVo2Go, which only lets you now copy about 2% of your recorded shows for IPod viewing.)
Brawndo
SwapMeet
Posted 7:06 AM 5/7/08
ReplayTV has some of these features for years. Of course, that was one of the reasons why it was sued off the face of the planet. It featured Internet Sharing out of the box! This was over 5 years ago. I have TiVo now, but I still have 2x 5000 series Replay in the house. I still like the ReplayTV interface more than the TiVo's.
SwapMeet
powerball
Posted 7:35 AM 5/7/08
ReplayTV will be in my house as until they die or until the stations figure out a way to prevent it from using automatic commercial advance. To sit down and watch a half hour show in 15 minutes, pressing no buttons, and getting no commercials. Watching your favorite network shows is so much more enjoyable. If it could record HD I'd marry it.
powerball
Canoehead
Posted 8:51 AM 5/7/08
The key is not sabotage the simple interface that anyone's mom can use, which is Tivo's best feature.
Canoehead
tylergg
Posted 9:16 AM 5/7/08
I think combing Tivo with Netflix watch it now sevicce would be great.
tylergg
danmandle
Posted 10:34 AM 5/7/08
they should definitely incorporate sling box style services
danmandle
IPingUPing
Posted 11:28 AM 5/7/08
To heck with the P2P stuff... VoD is going to replace most of that in the next 2-3 years anyway so if you missed something you can get it there. I need it to be smarter for multi TiVo HH. If I have 2 recordings coming in on my Living Room Series 3, check the Bedroom for recording capability before telling me there is a conflict. And warn me if I am recording the same program in two places.
I would like the SlingBox style services, just to make it integrated.
How about multiple outputs? I can watch one show in the office on the SlingBox while my wife watches craft shows in the big screen.
IPingUPing
thebear91
Posted 3:16 PM 5/7/08
I like to archive things and putting them out on a server is ideal since I have several Tivos. I can do this, but the series 2 boxes are limited to USB 1.1 speed. The series 3 does have 100 Mbit, but my network is Gig and it would be nice to have Gig on the Tivo.
I do like the streaming idea. As many others have said, the rest is really a pipe dream. I've not had good experience with torrents, even legal ones like linux distros. Start with 20 or so peers, but within 5 minutes it's down under 5 at around 16k each.
My series2's are 3rd party ones that have DVD-burners in them. A Series 3 HD with BluRay would be extremely nice.
thebear91
The Magnificen7
Posted 4:32 PM 5/7/08
@MrBlahBlah: Really? Because when I hear that, I think of the scene in the actual movie that I went to see, instead of LOLing at SNL (which I haven't done since I first saw Kristin Wiig's hilarious character that tries to nervously one-up everyone. That's great.)
The Magnificen7
MrBlahBlah
Posted 2:46 AM 6/7/08
@The Magnificen7: I try not to think about the actual movie. ever. what a waste of a movie ticket. I thought it was terrible. But then again, I don't usually go for the hollywood mental masturbation type movies.
ahem, staying on topic, it kind of annoys me how TiVo charges a monthly service fee, on TOP of an already expensive box. They would need to include such a stunning feature set to convince me to ditch my $8/month HD DVR from my cable company
MrBlahBlah
Zlevee
Posted 4:58 AM 6/7/08
"Streaming" -- Just wanted to point out that multi-room viewing (sharing between networked Tivo boxes) has actually been implemented already:
[www.tivo.com]
Of course, it's more of a transfer that can be watched as it's transferring, rather than a pure stream that doen't take up additional storage space.
Zlevee
Zlevee
Posted 5:01 AM 6/7/08
@MrBlahBlah: Having used several cable company DVRs aside from Tivo, I'll gladly pay Tivo.
Zlevee
vanmankennedy
Posted 6:20 AM 6/7/08
How about this for the whole networking thing.
1. Have an add friends like feature.
2. If your friends are watching the same show as you they can send you messages that automatically show up on screen.
3. If they are watching a different show the only thing that pops up then is "new message".
4. In addition to the regular channels, there should be chat room channels (examp. "NBC chat room.", "Animal Planet Chat Room")where off to the right side of the screen would be where anyone watching the currently airing show could say what they think about whats happening in the show.
5.You should be able to have a profile that people can look at.
Thats what i would like to see added to TIVO in the networking dept. If all that happens i would definitly get a TIVO!
vanmankennedy
jscherber
Posted 3:03 PM 6/7/08
A word of advise to anyone considering the HD Tivo being offered by Comcast.
DON'T DO IT.
It is a stripped down version of the Tivo software working off of Motorola hardware and the result is buggy, slow horrendous.
Tivo, should have never, and I mean NEVER have done this. It just really hurts their image and really pissed one of their long time customers (me) off.
jscherber
sublimnl
Posted 6:13 PM 6/7/08
Jason, TiVo already has MRV (multiroom viewing) on their S2+ standalone boxes. With Tivo Desktop Plus you can also stream avi's divx, xvid, h.264, etc to your tivo from your PC.
Maybe you are only familiar with the crippled DirecTV TiVo's? I had 3 of them for a while, all of them hacked so that I could get the full Series2 feature set that DirecTV would not allow.
sublimnl
newyo4
Posted 6:56 AM 6/7/08
I told Tivo a long time ago what they needed to grow sales. They have everything but software on the box to achieve the ultimate video conferencing box. They can sell a $50 camera, use their existing network to direct traffic, and allow for easy video conferencing. Every family would buy one for each grandparent. It would double or triple sales. Who knows. Maybe even small companies would buy them for distributed sales forces.
newyo4
btrotta
Posted 1:23 AM 8/7/08
I'll second the vote for ReplayTV, it did everything Tivo does, much of what's on your wishlist for FUTURE Tivos, and a whole lot more. Internet connectivity? Sending shows is a snap with RTV. I could also access my replay remotely from my laptop and download shows it recorded for me to watch while on the road. It also works great with orb to watch stuff live. They were easy to upgrade. The interface was fast and easy to use. It was better in every way than Tivo. It's a shame they were put out of business, and an even bigger shame that no one has figured out how to stitch an HD tuner into one of these.
btrotta