Anything that does enough damage/causes enough pain to deter someone does enough damage to kill some idiot with a heart as strong as a new born kitten's and the apparent inability to know when to assume the "I am not resisting" pose. A stiff breeze or a fall off the sidewalk could've probably killed this guy, that the Taser happened to be the mechanism is incidental.

This of course is the problem with "less than lethal" weapons, namely that there's no such thing. And giving everyone that impression just means that a) the cops will be looser with the use of them, and b) people will be emboldened to do stupid stuff since the worst that can happen is they'll get tased "like that dude on Jackass". Of course run a few thousand volts across a statistically valid cross section of the people likely to be dealing with cops in a confrontational manner without a full medical workup and a certain percentage of them are going to have pre-existing conditions or are going to have their body chemistry altered in such a way that electricity doesn't improve and they're going to wind up dead. Taser should just say that upfront, and push all the liability to the police departments.

junyo

"died from a combination of methamphetamine intoxication, an enlarged heart due to long-term drug abuse, and Taser shocks."

Hmm... bad heart and drug abuse with methamphetamine's. Yea that sure sounds like it's all the tasers fault, that's why everyone who gets tased dies... not just the drug users with bad hearts.

ttech10

I'm a cop and I think something people have to realize is that we have no clue what we are getting into when we deal with people out on the street. I will always try and talk things down first but, you better believe I will use OC Spray or another non-lethal if needed. We are constantly shown the "what-if" video's where officers have lost their lives because they underestimated someone. Priority #1 is always to go home at the end of the day.

JeremytheIndian

so, they are going to be liable now for any injury caused when being tazed?
If I am an unruly person when dealing with the police, I would much rather be tazed than SHOT! If I have a heart problem due to the drug choices or stupid choices I make to get me into the situation, then I am at fault...right?!

This may just take us back to the stone-ages of shooting or beating the suspect!

namabiru

@FredicvsMaximvs: I'm talking a party of multiple people doing the same act...not the opposite sides. Like, having 2 people group beating some guy's ass, then they might split the "responsibility" per se, but not both beaters, and the beatee.

shenanigans61

Score one for the scum-bag criminals. I hope TI wins their appeal! I alway get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling when I see one of those losers getting ZAPPED by our men in blue.

Nylo

@shamoononon: Well, okay, perhaps that's too harsh, shoot him in the bouncy black balls.

shamoononon

@Hiphopopotamus: Yeah, but those leave a mark, and we can't have evidence of abuse.

vvv

What no "Don't taze me bro!" comments? I am sorely disapointed. Never the less, this is as stupid as suing a baseball bat manufacturer because your kid gets hit in the chest and the maker should have known it could be dangerous. Please... shakespear was right... for a perfect world... kill all the layers.

mowglicub

@jkr2: I agree - if the product had, say, hit the guy with twice the voltage it should have due to a manufacturing or design defect, then by all means sue Taser.

@shenanigans61: There WERE two parties at fault (at least, as decided by the court): the victim was one of them, having done several dumb and bad things to his body that brought it to a state where he was more susceptible to a taser.

I wonder if the Police were found to be some percentage at fault?

FredicvsMaximvs

ATTENTION POLICE: Just kill him next time.

What if he was allergic to latex and died during the 'search'? I think this is stupid. I carry a stun gun for protection.

shamoononon

I wouldn't start counting eggs yet - surely thy'll appeal, no?

FredicvsMaximvs

Call me a purist, but that's why I've stuck with good old fashioned baton beatings.

Hiphopopotamus

well this is stupid. The product performed as intended, if the suspect is in ill health, teaser shouldn't be responsible, the police that used it would be the ones to go after. I'm not saying that they should necessarily be sued either, they have a job to do, and they, under the proper circumstances need to use force. This is nearly as bad as suing gun manufacturers because their guns kill (yes I know the intended design is different, but you can see the analogy). Naturally if the teaser malfunctioned, and was still in it's intended use period, that would be different. Guns/teasers don't kill, but stupidity sues and grants money. (to be honest though, I never much cared for the guns don't kill quote, but it sounds witty).

jkr2

Oh well. Back to good old-fashioned 12 gauge slugs for the cops.

bobdobbs's MBA is gettin nasty with LindsayJoy's MBP

That percent responsible shit kills me...you're either responsible or you're not. Multiple people in a party responsible, I could see splitting it. But telling the company they're 15% responsible? Wtf?

shenanigans61

@ttech10: Your point of course being that if you already have a damaged heart, killing you is ok?

Hey, I have an idea! Lets tazer you and your family for a while!

DanLar75

NO WAY! You can kill someone if you send 60-80.000 volt into their chest repeatedly???

This must be wrong...

Fkin morons, of course you can kill with a Tazer!

DanLar75

That's a tough call... The fact of the matter is that Taser markets the use of their products as being safer than playing basketball [www.taser.com] . At the same time, the guy had an enlarged heart and was on meth, so who's to say that he wouldn't have died fighting with police anyway? So essentially, the jury found that it was more likely than not (since it was a civil suit) Taser was 15% responsible for his death? What a convoluted legal system we have.

Munch

I'm happy, though really it's not tasers I'm against, it's cops that use them too easily. Tasers don't kill people, cops with tasers that use them for non-violent reasons kill people.

bitgod

@DanLar75: it's the watts that will kill you.

jkr2

I didn't know that tasers were so readily available. [www.amazon.com]

oopl

@DanLar75: That ^ goes for you too.

FredicvsMaximvs

So wait, when there's a wrongful death shooting as a result of police negligence or incompetance, can you sue Smith and Wesson?

Oceaniax

@jkr2: Nope, sorry, it's actually the amperage. That's why a taser can hit you with thousands of Volts and you (usually) won't suffer any permanent damage, but you can kill yourself with 110 Volts from household current.

It all depends on the conditions under which you receive the shock. It'll take much more to jolt you if it's just touching your dry skin. Less if your skin is moist (hence the sponges used with electric chairs) and WAY less still if someone were to open you up and stick a couple wires into your juicy parts.

FredicvsMaximvs

Hmm... a combination of methamphetamine intoxication, and an enlarged heart due to long-term drug abuse. Sounds like the societal maggot was 100% at fault.

The_Bear

Here is the original article. http://www.montereyherald.com/crime/ci_9511484?nclick_check=1 I think it is kind of funny that this article is finally starting to make noise even though it was published on the 7th of June.

ChatwinLolzords

@92BuickLeSabre: So, what's your legal specialty, counselor?

bobdobbs's MBA is gettin nasty with LindsayJoy's MBP

@shenanigans61: Okay, imagine the following. I'm walking down the street and the ground opens up beneath me and a break both my legs. After an inspection it turns out that I fell through because the cable company forgot to finish repacking the dirt around their cables, the adjoining building didn't let the concrete sit correctly, and the concrete bagging company allowed too many impurities in their mix. Any of these alone would be unlikely to lead to the structural damage, but the cable companies mistake leads to a sink hole 75% of the time, the impurities lead to some structural weaknesses 15% of the time...etc., etc.

@mowglicub: Kill all the layers? Man, my lemon cake is going to suck! And lasagna? Forget about it!

92BuickLeSabre

@FredicvsMaximvs: firstly, 120 won't kill a healthy adult, I should know as a general contractor. That isn't to say it's ever a good idea. Watt=energy=volt*amp. now you can't have much amperage w/o a certain level of voltage, but you can have lots of voltage w/ very little amperage. It is true that any actual amperage will kill you, but again, you need a voltage appropriately high enough to push the amperage. We can all go to wikipedia to find it out, but ultimately it's a matter of wattage and also time of exposure. 100,000 volts can actually go through you w/o hurting, voltage is difference in electrical charge, and amperage is flow of electrons. You can't have an electron flow w/o the appropriate voltage (pressure) to sustain it. So, yes, amperage will kill you, but amperage needs to voltage in order to overcome the resistance to flow. So you aren't wrong, but neither am I, for that matter.

jkr2

"it's obvious that it has the potential to be far more dangerous for people with heart conditions."
Um, no, it's obvious that it has the potential to be far more dangerous for drug users who happen to have heart conditions. Big difference.

packetsniffer

@Toshie: Bwahaha. If you can't get it overnight, fuck it?

bobdobbs's MBA is having dirty thoughts about LindsayJoy's MBP

@oopl: Meh, not eligible for Amazon Prime. :-(

@JeremytheIndian: "Priority #1 is always to go home at the end of the day." - Where does 'protect' and/or 'serve' fit into that priority list?

Obviously no one is going to argue that a LEO shouldn't defend themself, but you must admit there's seems to be a rash of Taser/PepperSpray-happy cops running around. To be honest, I really don't give a crap about mister hopped up on drugs dead guy, but maybe this case will force some measure of accountability on the police via a fear of litigation.

Toshie

well watt*time = energy, /me slaps myself for screwing that eq up.

jkr2

@Toshie: All cops get preached anymore is liability. But what that guy is referring to is this: Some guy you have to arrest is yelling and cussing at you and saying he is going to beat you up (can we cuss here?). You tell him he's under arrest and he tells you to screw off. What do you do? Walking up to him is going to end up in a fist fight, cause he's not going to go willingly. Or, you can point the Taser at him and tell him to turn around and put his hands behind his back. If he still refuses, you know now he won't go willingly. So when he says he wants to go home at night, it means he's not going to risk the fist fight, he's just going to Taser him, where he'll have 5 seconds to get the guy in handcuffs and he can't resist.

daducttapeartist

@daducttapeartist:
call for backup, and 6 guy's take down the one guy. Inconvenient for the police, yes, better than tasing, yes. Now if the guy is swinging a bat, bar, etc., or is running away, bring in the taser. From the point of view of the average citizen, most police come off as more hostile then they should. People who wish to be on power trips are attracted to such fields as law enforcement (some, not all, or even most). When the police have quotas for giving out tickets, to bring in revenue, or that telling the officer anything, even the truth, never helps you, they develop a bad name. I was in an accident 2 years ago. I was driving, and a tow truck pulled straight out in front of me. I moved into the suicide lane and hit a stopped car facing me, that wanted to turn into the tow yard. The stopped car was just past the tow truck which had pulled out. I hit the stopped car, and dented fenders. The driver of the tow truck got out and ran off. As I was waiting for the police to come, the owner drove the truck to another yard. This was a no contact hit and run, and I was found at fault. Want to know why, because it was too much effort to actually investigate. My view of law enforcement is skewed, but so are many others as well. 6 months later I received the report, which was filed and closed the day of the accident. I pursued further, and my last contact was w/ an inspector that told me "It sucks, but since you made contact, even to avoid another closer vehicle, I was at fault." He said next time I shouldn't try to avoid the tow truck, even though it gave me an extra 10 feet to stop.

jkr2

@jkr2: You're assuming cops always have backup. I live in a county where your backup is 30 minutes away, and that's after they wake up and get dressed. You're also assuming that it takes a weapon to hurt a cop. Not all of them are buff gym-monkies. What if Joe Skinny goes up against a buff black belt? There's a good video of this cop trying to arrest this dude and he tells the cop he's not going to jail. The cop tried to go hands on (this was before Tasers, i believe) and now, after numerous facial reconstructions, has a partial face. Punched numerous times on the side of the highway in broad daylight and no-one stopped to help. You can't get to your radio either when you're getting the crap beat out of you. Sure, if you have six people there that can all take a limb and hold him, so be it. But what you see on TV is not what the reality is most of the country. You're asking cops to put their lives below that of the suspect, and that's not the way it should be. If the suspect is going to refuse the cop's commands and make actions or statements that he will be resisting, that suspect just made the decision to be Tased, not the cop. They know they take the chance of physical injury when they make that decision. Or run.

My car was totaled in a parking lot by a drunk driver they never caught. People get killed by people and the murderer never gets caught. You have to realize the criminal justice system is flawed and overloaded and your fender bender probably wasn't worth the hundreds of dollars the taxpayers would have to pay to set up a perimeter and hunt this guy down.

Every jurisdiction in my area doesn't make a dime off tickets. In fact, they cost us money, whether it be the paper we write them on or sending the officers to court. Our court (city of around 13,000) doesn't even make enough money off the tickets to go in the black. And trust me, we write a lot of tickets.

I've been Tased twice, and will be getting it again in August as part of a demonstration. I'm not dead. Taser deaths are rare occurrences involving almost always drug use and always a heart condition or excited delirium. They've saved many more innocent lives than they've taken of suspects.

daducttapeartist

@daducttapeartist: you have no evidence that tasers have saved any more lives than regular police skills would have and there is a growing body of evidence that tasers have killed or helped kill a large number of people. it doesn't matter if most people aren't at risk of dying from tasers, if anyone is at risk tasers are no longer non-lethal weapons, they are somewhat non-lethal weapons and that is an enormous difference.

the real problem with tasers are their over use. in vancouver recently a kid tried running away from a transit officer and was tased. before tasers he would have gotten away and not had to pay the $2 to ride the train. instead he got a big surprise. in another story a man was in canadian customs for 6 hours and was pacing around angrily at that fact. some of the other visitors to canada became uncomfortable and reported it to the border officials. the officials then call in some border cops who tase the man without even trying to talk to him. he then dies.

people seem to think that because something wont necessarily kill you that its okay to use. tasers have killed or helped kill literally hundreds of people. just google "taser evidence."

ztella

@daducttapeartist:
"You're assuming cops always have backup."
san jose is a city of a million people, back up was not 30 min away.

"What if Joe Skinny goes up against a buff black belt?"
I believe I said 6 on 1, not 1 on 1.

"If the suspect is going to refuse the cop's commands and make actions or statements that he will be resisting, that suspect just made the decision to be Tased, not the cop. They know they take the chance of physical injury when they make that decision. Or run."
yes, but tasing needs to be used w/ restraint, not as a default. I also belive I agreed w/ using it when they run.

"You have to realize the criminal justice system is flawed and overloaded and your fender bender probably wasn't worth the hundreds of dollars the taxpayers would have to pay..."
finding me at fault because they didn't want to do their job an investigate is not an excuse. they should have just not determined who was at fault then. BTW my insurance company found that I was not at fault, and now I have to get a letter from them every time I renew w/ another company so I don't get charged extra.

"Every jurisdiction in my area doesn't make a dime off tickets. In fact, they cost us money, whether it be the paper we write them on or sending the officers to court."
I completly disagree w/ you. The average speeding ticket is around $200 in California. They make a lot of money since most people don't fight it. If they didn't make money, the police wouldn't have quotas, and then lie about having quotas for years. They would be proud about the quotas and claim that they save lives and other BS comments.

"Taser deaths are rare occurrences involving almost always drug use and always a heart condition or excited delirium. They've saved many more innocent lives than they've taken of suspects."
I agree, though keep in mind that if i punch a guy, and he dies since he had an anurisim, I am 100% liable for his death and pursued legally and civilly. (I watch judge Judy :) ). The point is that there are those in law enforcement that abuse their position. Obviously this is only a portion of officers, not all.

jkr2

1.21 jigawatts!

madog

"died from a combination of methamphetamine intoxication, an enlarged heart due to long-term drug abuse, and Taser shocks."

Why has no one picked up on this? The guy was Meth'd. Not just long term use - he was actually high. So in all likelihood, and due to the fact that it seems the police were cleared in the internal inquiry, he was a majority contributor to his own demise.

Watch for the (much less publicized) appeal.

Ellomdian

@jkr2: "san jose is a city of a million people, back up was not 30 min away." So, because they have plenty of cops, I get to get my ass beat cause I can't have one in my po-dunk town? Just because Joe Cop uses his irrationally I get mine taken away?

"I believe I said 6 on 1, not 1 on 1." But you're applying a 6 on 1 scenario to EVERY scenario!

I never said you didn't.

"finding me at fault because they didn't want to do their job an investigate is not an excuse. they should have just not determined who was at fault then. BTW my insurance company found that I was not at fault, and now I have to get a letter from them every time I renew w/ another company so I don't get charged extra."

Did you get a ticket or something? Cause in my state, cops don't determine who is at fault. The insurance companies do. Cops only determine if any traffic violations are committed and cite appropriately.

"I completly disagree w/ you. The average speeding ticket is around $200 in California. They make a lot of money since most people don't fight it. If they didn't make money, the police wouldn't have quotas, and then lie about having quotas for years. They would be proud about the quotas and claim that they save lives and other BS comments." Well, I work for said court, and I see the budget, and I see where those ticket funds go. I also know the officers have a performance goal of 16 tickets a month, which is nothing when you work 40 hours a week. If you don't do 16 tickets a month, you're just not doing your job. And if you consider cost of living, it's not any different here. It's $125.

"I agree, though keep in mind that if i punch a guy, and he dies since he had an anurisim, I am 100% liable for his death and pursued legally and civilly. (I watch judge Judy :) ). The point is that there are those in law enforcement that abuse their position. Obviously this is only a portion of officers, not all." What is different though is that you are committing a crime in the process. Cops are legally required to protect and serve, and that protect means to arrest. If they have to use a Taser, or pepper spray, or baton, or arm bars, or whatever to get that done, they are legally allowed to do so. So then the guy dies in this process because of a drug inside his body and a pre-existing heart condition and the officers are at fault?! No.

@ztella: I see you read the Amnesty International press releases. I would recommend going through and seeing how many of those involved drugs and then get back to me on that over 100 number. If you can't look it up, every study done on departments that didn't use Tasers and went to Tasers show a significant decrease in not only officer injuries but suspect injuries as well.

Excuse the bad typing, it's very late.

daducttapeartist

@ztella:
tasers have decreased deaths. It used to be that officers would get out the batons and go to work. Have tasers been over used, yep. But in general there is no doubt that tasers are a good thing.

jkr2

@daducttapeartist:
"So, because they have plenty of cops, I get to get my ass beat cause I can't have one in my po-dunk town? Just because Joe Cop uses his irrationally I get mine taken away?"

Was it not clear that I am a proponent of tasers? No you shouldn't get yours taken away. If an officer uses a taser on a person before exhausting other alternatives, such as calling for back up, he should be disciplined. If the suspect dies from being tased, and the officer didn't exhaust other options, like calling for backup (if backup is available), then he is responsible for that mans death. The question is what is adequate force. what is less harmful to a suspect, tasing or being taken down by 6 officers, exhaust the least harmful choices first, if those choices don't put an officer significantly more in harms way.
**************************
as far as the 6 on 1 issue, I said 6 on 1, you then replied w/ a 1 on 1 example. Apples to apples and oranges to oranges. If we both agree that 1 on 1 is not acceptable, no point using that as part of a rebuttal.
*******************
"Did you get a ticket or something? Cause in my state, cops don't determine who is at fault. The insurance companies do. Cops only determine if any traffic violations are committed and cite appropriately."

No, I didn't get a ticket, but it clearly states on the police report that was filed, that I was at fault. The DMV was notified that I caused an accident, I got the points on my license and a warning letter, and now have to go through hoops each year to keep from having to pay more on my insurance.
*******************
"Well, I work for said court, and I see the budget, and I see where those ticket funds go."

regardless of that, the city gets the funds, and the city pays the cops. They can budget it any way they want, but the city is covering partial cost of operations w/ tickets. If they stopped giving out tickets, they would have to cut back operations. Arguing that if the city were to stop handing out tickets, they would have more money is illogical at it's foundation. Additionally $125 might be for having no tickets on your record, and $300+ for havinf multiple tickets. That's why I used the word "average". Are you also counting court costs as part of the fine, because I am.
*********************
"...What is different though is that you are committing a crime in the process..."

If the officer is using excessive force, he to is commiting a crime, if not by the letter of the law, he is by the spirit of it.

jkr2

$6 Million? That's a lot of meth.

Benny Goldman

@namabiru: That's the basic problem with the taser. If you were just being unruly, a cop would have quite a bit of pause before shooting you. But because a taser is "non-lethal", there's a tendency to think of it as something you can use without the same level of consideration.

This is the wrong way of treating a taser, and I don't think that the cops are as much to blame as the training and marketing. As a general rule, a taser should only be used in a situation where the cop would be willing to use a gun. It's being used as an "enhanced" form of restraining someone, when it really should be treated as "soft" form of *shooting someone dead*.

rraszews

@rraszews: If a situation warrants that I pull my gun, why the hell would I pull my taser? That's crazy talk. If I give you an order to do something, you refuse, I taze you. Simple as that, you won't be tazed if you follow the commands of the officer. It is a far better alternative than going hands on and risking injury, or pepper spraying and causing everyone in the room or downwind to choke, or hitting them with batons. What people have to understand is that the taser does not fall just under the gun in the force continuum, it is used just after verbal commands and just before hands on and impact weapons.

ferris209

@jkr2: Why is it you think that going hands on is safer than tasing? I am a cop and it has been my experience that nearly every time we go hands on, weather it be 6-on-1 or 1-on-1, there will be an injury. Either to the suspect or the Officer(s). So now you, joe taxpayer, are paying for the hospital care of the Officer or the scumbag when it all could've been taken care of with a 2 minute jolt. In my department, injuries have went down significantly since we all got issued tasers.

Simply put, you have no knowledge or first hand experience to make your "facts" anything more "assumptions".

ferris209

@bobdobbs's MBA is having dirty thoughts about LindsayJoy's ...: If I want to tase somebody, I usually want to do it sooner than later...

@daducttapeartist: I want the people we've charged with protecting us to have all the tools necessary to do their jobs safely but when there are repeated and serial abuses of these tools, then something must be done. Perhaps if law enforcement were more diligent in policing the abusers instead of just firming up the blue line, things would be different.

@Benny Goldman: You might think so, but it goes quicker than you think. :-(

Toshie

Perhaps we could just train the police to shoot better.... a little 9mm to the shoulder... one to the knee....

then the suit could be filed against the hospital for excessive blood loss....

icegnome

@indemnitypop: Cool, okay I'll give my taser up and just cause concussions and brain damage to folks by beating them in the head. Yeah, great idea. What you don't realize is far less people have been killed by taser than by beating.

ferris209

Tasers are the most misleading pieces of plastic in existence. They give citizens and police the idea that it is o.k. to literally shock the $*** and @*** out of someone for acting crazy. I'm glad the police men feel safer about using these, but you know what, being a cop is a dangerous job, and if you're not up to it, find a new one. It's not o.k. to knowingly endanger someone's life simply because he won't lie down on the sidewalk and act like a scared puppy. Criminals are just that, criminals. They are hard; they can fight, but if they aren't putting the lives of others at risk; if they aren't swinging guns or chains, then they need to be restrained using the classic "less than lethal" method of a fist to the face, or pepper spray. Electricity is no JOKE, and all you people who blame this guys death on his meth abuse have probably never known a drug addict. People make bad choices - that doesn't give us the right to kill them. Taser may not be responsible for this, but their misleading marketing to police forces and police mens misuse of their equipment is.

I appologize for ranting, but I feel very passionately about ending all the senseless killing that has been inspired by these things, and I know no one will read this anyway.

indemnitypop

From a law school friend:

Interesting article, this sounds like a law school hypothetical question. The 15% vs. 85% split is pretty artificial, of course, but the line of culpability had to be drawn somewhere in order to calculate the damages for his family. The outcome reminds me of a rule in criminal cases, where actions have unforeseeable results because of the victim's prior and non-obvious health condition. For example, suppose a man is held up at gun point for his wallet, and he dies of a heart attack because he has a health condition. The crook is responsible for the man's death, even if the crook didn't intend to kill (e.g., there were no bullets in the gun). The rule is that the wrongdoer takes his victim as he finds him, hidden susceptibilities and all. I think the rule is the same in tort cases, but I can't remember. In this case, the police (and taser) had to take their victim as they found him, so they are liable for his death even if a necessary factor in his death was his self-induced poor health. The odd wrinkle here is that the article doesn't address whether the police were found to have used excessive force or whether the victim was improperly resisting arrest. If the victim did cause himself to be tased, I'd think that would further reduce the taser company's liability for his death.

The Lab

@ferris209: you get 6 guys spraying 1 guy w/ peper spray, he's going down, no muss, no fuss. You don't know my background, so don't jump to conclusions about my level of knowledge. Peper spray isn't that bad unless it's on the skin, even the it's only a very mild irritant. It's when it hits the membranes that you really feel it. Don't put it up your nose or put it in your eyes, and you'll be just fine. As I've said from the beginning, I don't know the exact circumstances of this case, but there are plenty of arrests where tasers have been used when they shouldn't have been. If you don't think that 6 guy's w/ peper spray can take down one guy fairly safely, I can put you in touch w/ some trainers for retraining.

jkr2

@jkr2: Well, this pretty much sums up your comprehension on things. Have you ever had to fight a guy with any of people on one, it is not as easy as you make it out to be. If you put any six people on one, there will most likely be an injury, especially if the one guy is high on dope. Believe me, Taser's are the only way to go.

ferris209

@jkr2: You ask your trainers if pepper spray is going to work on a guy with a meth high and let me know what he says. Pepper spray is pain compliance, meaning, if he can't feel the pain, it won't work. If you're on a meth high, or very drunk, it doesn't work. Secondly, pepper spray only works on about 75% of the population AND contaminates everyone in the area. I've sprayed a drunk guy before and he just wiped it off. Tasers aren't pain compliance. The electricity locks up the muscles so you can't move, allowing officers to put handcuffs on. They work very differently, and this is the exact reason why officers are using Tasers more often instead of pepper spray.

daducttapeartist

@indemnitypop: wee todd

middy

@ferris209: @daducttapeartist:

hahaha 1 in 4 people are immune to "triple action" pepper spray, you sir should site your sources. What's more it doesn't work on just "pain". It essentially blinds a person, it causes involuntary spasms, and uncontrollable coughing. Now if you are referring to first generation pepper spray, you would have a valid argument, but I never was talking about first gen pepper spray, and I know you weren't referring to first gen teasers. What I find surprising is that nobody argued the point that pepper spray does kill too. The fundamental point is; "are cops tase happy". Some are, most aren't.

jkr2

@ferris209:
triple action pepper spray has tears gas in it. Your friend must be the most advanced super human being ever, or you just missed the whole "not first generation pepper spray" statement, and your friend was only sprayed w/ first gen spray. And, no, a taser should not kill a healthy adult, but not everybody who is arrested are "healthy".

jkr2

ferris209 at 12:02 PM Reply by Email *
@indemnitypop: Cool, okay I'll give my taser up and just cause concussions and brain damage to folks by beating them in the head. Yeah, great idea. What you don't realize is far less people have been killed by taser than by beating.
-----------

Seriously.

You know how people who have certain brands of electronics, etc...swear by them? How if a person works for a certain company, they're sometimes completely pro-X brand?

Well, sorry...but seeing as you're a cop, that makes you informed, but not UNBIASED.

Cops go on power trips...it's human nature, whatever. The deal is that you have ALOT of cops taking the easy way out, and instead of negotiating with them (with elderly people, ill people WHATEVER), like you SHOULD BE doing, not that "if you refuse an order, I taze you simple as that" bullshit.

It's not as simple as that. Tazers aren't to be used in addition to, but instead of. You haven't been trained very well at all, if you think a tazer is the answer to any refusal to comply with a request.

Indio

@jkr2: yes, I have actually seen people get sprayed and then wipe it off and not even gag. I have actually worked with guys like that. One guy I work with was in the military and I do believe he was on Delta, but he can't say. Anyhow, you can spray him direct in the face and his eyes don't even turn red, he doesn't cough. You'd might as well spray him with water. Now we tased him and that worked. BY the way, how many cops across the country do you think have been tased? Not a one of them as died.

ferris209

@daducttapeartist: what ztella is saying is true. There have recently been numerous deaths in Vancouver related to cops tasering people. What is really sad about the polish immigrant at the airport is that he couldn't speak a word of English and was lost in the airport for at least 10 hours. He seemed to become distressed and began freaking out. And at this point 6 police officers/boarder guards proceeded to tackle him to the ground and than taser him twice. This doesn't come off as excessive force?

I believe its time to drop that whole "non-lethal" bull because its quite obvious that taser-related deaths are shooting up where ever tasers are used. It seems like the "shoot first, ask questions later" problem seems to be transferring over to taser use. There are so many other ways to deal with some drug-addict that is flipping out than simply resorting to the taser. Yea okay, sure, you may be in a really small, remote town, but what are the odds that someone there is going to start violently lashing out at the public? A lot less than in a city that would have the necessary backup.

erad

@Toshie: Going home at the end of the day means being able to come back the next day to protect and serve. You can't help anyone unless you are there to do so.
@bitgod: Force Science News #99(www.forcesciencenews.com) has a study done from 1983 to 2005 on 213 Taser deaths. Tasers were "confirmed as the direct cause of or a significant contributing factor in only 2 deaths."
@daducttapeartist: This officer returned to the force after several surgeries to reconstruct her face.

+ Watch video

I am very fortunate to work for a 110 man department where backup is 2 - 3 minutes away. I can tell you, the psychological of an officer drawing a Taser X26 and putting the laser dot on someone's chest makes them compliant very quickly. I have "rode the lightning" myself and can attest to its ability to incapacitate a subject.

While I am all for Tasers and their deployment, it is only a tool and not a substitue for defensive tactics, verbal judo, and a good head on your shoulders.

jahickel

Either to the suspect or the Officer(s). So now you, joe taxpayer, are paying for the hospital care of the Officer or the scumbag

I love how a private citizen becomes a "scumbag" the second some cop wants to flex a little muscle. I guess that's the required mental defense mechanism to avoid facing the fact that, more often than not, cops are abusing people who have done nothing wrong.

If I give you an order to do something, you refuse, I taze you.

Or maybe even if you comply. Why not? It's just a taser, right? No harm done, and we might as well get some jollies watching some grandmother flail around like a fish, right?

crashfrog

Priority #1 is always to go home at the end of the day.

Only if you're a bad cop. That's not the job we, the people, hired you and gave you the monopoly on state violence for.

The job we hired you for was to protect us, not to protect your own ass. And if protecting us means that you don't go home at the end of the day, that's what we expect you to do. You volunteered for it, remember? Nobody twisted your arm to make you a cop.

I'm f*cking tired of cops with this bullshit "me first" attitude.

crashfrog

My question to anyone who bashes TASER is do you really read all the facts??? The fact that the guy was cracked out on Meth to the point that any human body I don't care how fit or healthy you are would die! What pisses me off the most is that people just make a decision about something without knowing all the facts. I was VERY skeptical about a TASER until I read a lot, and I mean a lot about it. Yes I agree that there are ways to miss use a TASER, but lets see would I rather have a bullet rip through my body or have a TASER hit me. I've had the chance to feel what a TASER is like, I volunteered for it, and if you doubt me I have the video to back me up. (Yes we all get a laugh about me being hit by it, I will admit it's funny to see me go down like a sack of potatoes. And no in case you are thinking it I'm not an officer.) You know what it's not that horrible. Yes it hurts, but guess what I'm still here and there's not one damn thing wrong with me. If I was ever dumb enough to mess with a cop in the wrong way I'd rather be hit by that then be nailed by a gun!

When a cop uses a gun to put down the bad guy most of the time we don't give it a second glance, but when a cop uses a TASER on a bad guy to gain control over the situation everyone freaks out. Yes, I feel bad that the family of this man lost him, it's a horrible thing when a life is lost at anytime. But lets see, the fact that the guy was a horrid drug user, to the point of beating his own family who loves and cares for him, and when he turns on an officer who is trying to gain control I don't hold anything against that officer for using a TASER instead of putting a bullet in his head right there and then. At least with the TASER there was a chance for him to still be alive (apart from the amount of drugs that were in his system.)

Yes the Jury said that TASER was 15% responsible for the death, you know what It's an emotional trial, and I'm sure the lawyers played off how horrid it was that this family lost a loved one. But I really ask you, how in the world is it possible to be 15% responsible for the death of someone. Does that mean if I were to die because I drive 80 mph headfirst into a wall while being drunk without a seatbelt on, BMW should be 15% responsible because they personally didn't tell me that I should put on a safety belt.

What about the 60+ trials filed against TASER that they have won because the person that died, died because of the amount of drugs that were in there system and not due to the fact that a TASER was used on them, why doesn't anyone report and comment on that. No, it's only the bad news happens that get people to jump on the bashing wagon and toss there two cents of invalid and non factual info on.

punk22

Oh yeah an uneducated public is your worst nightmare. That guy had already killed himself and the cops and Taser are now responsible. Its not 60k volts and its the amperage that will kill you not the voltage. 5k across the body for 5 seconds and the amperage is minimal at best maybe that of a christmas bulb. They will win on appeal !!! and they should !!!

jackstraw17

couple things:

1) seems kinda weird that they would be involved in 45 wrongful death suits considering they are touting a "non lethal" device.

2) im ALL ABOUT our police having a non/lessthan lethal option to use before they pull the firearm out. dont get me wrong on that. i also think a taser or OC is a far better alternative to the straight truncheon. however, there seems to be a complete lack of responsibility with some police. the idea behind the OC or the taser is to have something to use before or instead of a firearm. but because there is no accountability it has turned into a compliance device. this is where i draw issue. i have seen plenty of videos on you tube of people who are pulled over for minor traffic violations being tased, in one case because the guy didn't produce his license fast enough. ive seen many people already detained and in cuffs being tased. the list goes on and on. if this where used as an alternative to deadly force or to protect officers, fine. to be used as a compliance device is just plain wrong.

NoseNuggets

Three pairs of police hit this guy with at least 3 taser guns, some simultaneously. Both court sides agreed that tasers were fired 25 times, for 75 seconds total. So, either the police knew they were harming him, or they weren't taught this could be harmful. Their trainer stated in court that they were taught to fire multiple and simultaneous times because some shots might miss. They guy was lying on the floor much of the time- what's to miss? Either the police intended harm or they were not warned. Take your pick. The jury chose not warned.

SaheliLibra

1. What if the person has an allergy to pepper spray and died due to an allergic reaction. Is it the pepper spray manufacture that is at fault.

2. Was the suspect resisting arrest? I would say yes because the police were not found of any wrong doing. Against your argument that they tase to much this apparently was not the case. Simple the only person who was responsible for this guys death was himself. He was more then likely violent I've known meth user they are not what you call calm and controled.
Taser are the path with possiblity of least amount of harm to anyone. Not the tasers fault the guy who decided to resit arrest it was not 80% his fault it was 100% his fault.
They decided to tase him instead of engaging him it was the proper thing to do. When you do meth you don't think right you don't really care about pain and you can do a lot of damage to someone.

If a person is resisting arrest and he has his hands cuffed behind his back in his struggle trips and falls on a board and plants a nail in his head killing him. Is it the handcuffs fault because he couldn't catch himself before impaling his head on the board?

Just quit your cop bashing there are good cops bad cops but you know what most of them just want to do the best they can to help protect those they can and no body ever wants to thank them.

I'm not fond of them when I get caught for something trivial but you know what you don't have the testicles to do their job.

Your like the hippy that spits on a soldier because he does what he was supposed to do.

Dtarot

It's a cop problem, not a Taser problem.
I'm tired of cops. Tase 'em back. See how many die of weak hearts created by to many donuts (donuts, the crack for cops). Ta hell with cops.

Punknudder

Quickly go out of business? That's a stretch considering 13,000 agency's are using the device and demand is still strong globally! They were found partially at fault for failing to warn police on the potential harm for multiple shocks. That obviously wont happen again! The Author of this article sounds like a fool with his comments! Mario **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)

SaralaClytemnestra

This is stupid... the guy's heart was faulty DUE TO LONG TERM DRUG USE!!!!!!!!!!!!! AKA ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES
he KILLED HIMSELF!!!!
the cops/tazer did NOTHING to kill this man, who if it weren't for the drug use would be in perfect health...
and the tazer has never been dubbed harmless, its always been dubbed "less than lethal" only to be deemed lethal if health played a part in a person's demise...
at 15% tazer should be happy that in a state of overuse of drugs this man only barely died because of their product, which means it works as advertised...
i think US law puts too much lean on peoples rights, i bet if that shithead was on a death march waving a gun around little children they wouldn't have cared as much, but because he was just rampaging through the house and resisting arrest its the cops fault, bullcrap, they did their job in restraining a raving madman, who by the way died the NEXT day not as a direct result of the tazer... I HATE THE US, this is crap, police get so much crap, when they did all they could to restrain a 40 yr old "well built" high school football star, so he was probally a big ass dude...
im sorry but HURRAH for the cops getting one more shitbag off the streets!
DON'T DO DRUGS UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE ARRESTED, DON'T RESIST UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE MANHANDLED. END OF STORY!!

maxmcleod

Guess they better switch back to bullets...cuz those don't kill people everytime. I think tasers are awesome having been a former law enforcement officer. It beats the hell out of shooting everybody.

goldfixe

Gizmodo credibility as an information source is seriously compromised by highly biased reports such as this. I can read similar screeds on any extremist activist group web pages and would like to believe that I can get useful information here and not propaganda as in this report.

Keven_K