why's everyone wondering how it's pumped? I want to know what the hell they are going to use with this?! There aren't enough hydrogen cars in the world to actually build a fueling station. Maybe if there were some sort of hydrogen fuel cell add on to regular gasoline cars.. that'd be awesome.. "And here's my 2002 VW 1.8T GTI with a hydrogen fuel cell upgrade!"

kllngtme

For a minute, there, as I read the headline, I thought it was going to say, "Shell Station in LA to Offer Financing Later This Month"

metrophage

@newgalactic: I am wondering the same thing. I've never seen one at work... is it per gallon? cubic ft or what?

rainmkr

Isn't more hazardous to dispose of a hydro cell car than a lifetime of gasoline emissions?

[jaychick.com]

jaychick

Isn't it more hazardous to dispose of a hydro cell fuel care than a lifetime of gasoline emissions?

[jaychick.com]

jaychick

Edit, they added a city


The FCX Clarity is ready for the road. A limited number of
these groundbreaking vehicles will be leased to Southern
Californians starting during the summer of 2008.

The reason for this limited initial release is that in order to drive a fuel cell vehicle, you have to be able to refuel it. And since these clean cars do not run on gasoline, you can't just stop off at your regular corner gas station to fill up. Hydrogen fuel stations are critical to the deployment of a fuel cell car and, as it stands now, stations accessible to the public are still quite limited.

Therefore, only customers currently residing in the Torrance, Santa Monica and Irvine areas who meet additional qualification criteria will be eligible to take an FCX Clarity home. Honda wants to ensure that FCX Clarity drivers will be able to take their vehicles in for service at participating dealers and have convenient access to refueling stations. Leasing will be handled through American Honda Motor Co., Inc. in conjunction with local dealers. Maintenance will also be covered by the three-year $600/month lease.

DoPeY5007

@Hiphopopotamus: There is hydrogen in the air we breath... even if it is like one part per million, or something like that. But shell makes no claims as to how much of the gas is hydrogen, just that it contains hydrogen.

Rabid Penguin

How is hydrogen fuel transfered? Is it in a gas form, liquid, or hydrogen-ated liquid?

newgalactic

There was been some in Torrance and Santa Monica already, those are the only two cities that Honda would lease the Clarity

DoPeY5007

That thing can pretty much pump whatever the hell it wants out of the nozzle - not like there will be any cars coming by to fill up.

My money says they just stuck a new sign on the tire air pump.

Hiphopopotamus

@jaychick: Care to elaborate on this? I have never heard anything about problems with disposing of hydrogen powered cars or fuel cells.

I'd imagine that most of the fuel cell parts are pretty recyclable anyway...

EQC

@kllngtme: baby steps my friend...

MrMaestr0

@metrophage:

hahah Nice

ferrdidly

A hydrogen tank + fuel cell might weigh less than batteries. A hydrogen fill-up is faster than recharging batteries.

That's it for the advantages of hydrogen. In every other way charging a battery-powered car is better. But when change threatens your trillion dollar auto fuel business, you'll promote anything that continues its relevance.

California's Gropinator-in-chief Ahhnold promoted the Hydrogen highway: "Another $6.09 million was included in the 2006/2007 State budget for the continued development of hydrogen stations". Meanwhile after spending a million on this station, Shell can spend $40 million in ads trumpeting how environmentally sensitive they are.

The Honda Clarity (former FCX) was going to come with a Home Energy Station that would create hydrogen from natural gas at home. Not much word of that. Again, it is SO MUCH more efficient to recharge batteries than to screw around making hydrogen.

skierpage

@kllngtme: Here's California's list of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles; they're all prototypes, mostly from several years ago, and all but the Honda FCX Clarity are conversions.

There are also a few hydrogen *burning* prototypes like the BMW 7 and a Mazda, but that's much less efficient than hydrogen fuel cell.

skierpage

I believe the hydrogen is in a gas form, but that is just an uneducated guess based on how they are creating it at the facility.

That said, the only reason they are doing this is, as skierpage mentioned, to undercut the direction the consumer is forcing the auto industry to go. The future relies on electricity.

While we might occasionally need a gallon or two of petrol to re-charge our engine on an extremely long journey, most of us will rarely visit a service station. The thought of being able to just get into my car and commute to work each day and never having to 'fill up' is a future I can not wait to experience. Filling up on hydrogen sounds like the oil companies trying to keep their grip on us.

Monty

For those failed to or cannot read they are obviously pumping hydrogen gas. The "electrolyzer" uses more energy to separate the hydrogen and oxygen than the hydrogen produces. That would be if they are using water. If they are using methanol they will use less electricity but produce CO2 as a waste product. Then there is the storage of hydrogen which can be problematic. The storage cell will most likely be a precious metal, Pt or Pd. I would guess that they would be using methanol because using water would be dumb. So now you have to expend energy and create waste to produce methanol (produced from corn or coal) so you can produce hydrogen and more waste. DUMB DUMB DUMB If you're going to produce methanol why waste more energy to produce hydrogen then have to develop an infrastructure to support H2 vehicles when an infrastructure already exists that would support methanol?

jdkchem

@Monty: here here! or hear hear? anyway...

My sentiments exactly. Im envisioning some kind of renewables setup where i can charge my car off the sunlight that stores at home while im gone during the night.

The future: Gas is purchased only for journeys of 200+ miles, the roundtrip to work is run completely off renewable electricity.

pevans34

@newgalactic:
It's gas; the article mentioned an electrolyzer but no liquifier. I think only BMW's hydrogen 7 is running on liquid.

@skierpage:
You forgot one thing: hydrogen sounds more futuristic. After all, much of the reason why they are building a pump that most likely won't serve much people and is most likely not very environmentally friendy in the first place (though luckily California's electricity is relatively clean), is that it gives them very good advertising potentional.

Not that I believe any of the conspiracy theories, but hydrogen can be cheaply made by steam reformation of natural gas, a resource that is can be found in oil fields. This is why if you read the article, "Hydrogen has been touted as the successor to gasoline for many years", at least for most of the auto-industry. Hydrogen seems to be the only alternative that oil companies can benefit from (read: control) without too many changes to their infrastructure, even moreso than biofuels, which involves growing plants, and way more than electricity, which unlike hydrogen or biofuels isn't really a "fuel" in the traditional sense (as in it doesn't need to be transported by large trucks or pipelines, the traditional fuel infrastructures). So it just makes logical sense for them to back hydrogen and bio-fuels more than EVs.

That said, if this pump isn't primarily funded by government money, then I have no problem with Shell dumping money into this. Hydrogen research still has other useful applications.

stopcrazypp

-this is getting old already...
leapfrog hydrogen go 100% electric.

Silverback

Um...don't forget that the hydrogen prototypes like the Clarity cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to make. They are nowhere near production ready in terms of cost.

These test "fleets" are simply to see if folks can live with them day to day, they can handle routine use etc. It's like free R&D plus PR.

Rabbi Dave

@pevans34: It's hear hear :-D

Kaiser-Machead

I always Wonder .. If Hydrogen Can Be a Problem 2.. I love the Benefits about it . But when the process when using a Hydrogen Car. It emits Heat and Water Vapor..
Know lets just say the U.S Adapts Hydrogen? and Years Later there are Tons of cars Using Hydrogen --->
Will this How Affect are Climate to? i mean We all cannot say that if million of cars are emitting Water vapor
it wont affect Humidity? or something else?
i for once don't like feeling Humid. just Curious?
What will Millions and Million of cars like we have know do the Air? and Roads Emitting Water Vapor?

DJJS

What skierpage said. Hydrogen, pun mostly intended, is largely a pipe dream, one that permits the big oil and auto concerns-not to mention George W.-to procrastinate on genuinely viable alternatives to fossil fuel for as long as possible.

This station happens to be a few blocks from my house. The hydrogen processor is on the roof over the pump and looks quite fancy-schmancy. This place is more accurately labeled a PR station than a fueling station.

humorbot

@skierpage: Honestly Half..
Salvi,German,Spain. i can't Help it..

DJJS

@DJJS: [www.justfuckinggoogleit.com] for "water vapor greenhouse gas". Water vapor is a greenhouse gas, but it doesn't force temperature changes, it follows. Hotter world == more water vapor. Millions of cars belching steam might make a small local difference but won't affect the overall level of water vapor in the atmosphere. More info in the Wikipedia article that Google coughed up.

Also, are You German? Never have I Seen so Many Capitalized Words Within Sentences.

skierpage

Well, I'm glad Shell's putting their weight on the idea that fast. Too bad the number of cars that will use it will be rather small. Makes me wonder if my friend Dan at the California DeLorean shop knows anything about how to switch the car's fuel source, since the absurdity of the idea seems less, due to this!

Mr.Wilson

@Mr.Wilson: Be careful before heedlessly switching over. That Hydrogen won't be able to produce the 1.21 gigawatts necessary to get that DeLorean moving.

snubz

can somebody see a kool explosion!? i want too...

aznplayer213

the fact that it is backed by a major company could be the spark needed to generate real progress.

i see what you did there.

x23

Gimme electric already

droopy1592

But what is this hydrogen fuel going to cost? That is what I want to know. I to think that we need to move to all electric or a hybrid, be it gasoline/elec or hydrogen/elec.

grspec

@jaychick: No, it's not worse to dispose of a hydrogen car than a lifetime of gas emissions, because even if the car were made out of pure evil, it wouldn't be dispersed in the atmosphere.

Pender

LA = Louisiana
L.A. = Los Angeles

sr105

For all those folks demanding 100% electricity...

Essentially, that is what hydrogen is. It's a type of battery. You convert energy into a fuel that is easier to store and then turn it back into energy when you need it.

Solar power + water = hydrogen.

Super capacitors and batteries just aren't there yet. The Indians are using compressed air, but that's not powerful enough oomph for most Americans.

Have a look at the new Think car coming out. It's a sweet-looking ride. 100% battery powered. You buy the car but have to lease the batteries. Why? Because they are expensive, toxic, and don't last very long. The average owner would have to shell out around $8K every time they needed a battery change. How fast do the batteries go bad in your cell phone? Cordless drill? Even the 12V battery in your car? You want to spend $30K for a car that'll need $8K of maintenance every 5 years?!

Right now, hydrogen is a better battery. (I prefer the dry borax method of storing it, but that's a minor quibble.)

shawn_dude

I will probably sound selfish here but,
Why cant we have a fuel source that keeps the Manual Transmission? I like the idea of a cleaner fuel source but until they start making fuel-cell cars or electric cars with a manual transmission I see no reason to continue. The Tesla may have one? I'm not quite sure, but even if it did that one vehicle is not enough to jump start the market. The market for a manual transmission is much larger in other countries so for the change to begin the largest of the countries (the U.S.) needs to have vehicles that are manual trans because if we don't use lazy Americans will be the only ones changing(I won't, I rather pay in 10.00$ gallon then give up my fun to drive car for a slow auto electric one).

kbates666

This is a good direction, but Chevron has had hydrogen filling stations since 2005 as part of a plan to show that hydrogen can be safely delivered to consumers. While hydrogen filling stations are few and far between, they're mainly used for city buses and such which run on cleaner emissions.

SB22

You all are absolutely right. hydrogen cars are like 1st gen plasma tv's. are they better than tube tv's? yeah in a sense. do they have problems? sure. Will this the standerd for many years to come? not likely.

Problems can be worked out. but when you look at the cost of manufacturing hydrogen plants and stations, how does that affect the customers pocket book? how much does it cost per gallon/liter... whatever. cause in 10 yrs i'm paying the same price as gas at that time. i'ma just get a chevy volt to commute, and a tesla roadster for looks.

tracer88

test

spec24

"And since these clean cars do not run on gasoline, you can't just stop off at your regular corner gas station to fill up" Clean cars???? How do you think they're producing this hydrogen? It takes other fuel to produce hydrogen.. like, uh COAL, natural gas. Don't even get started iwth wind and solar - it ain't happenin' yet, and hydro's too busy running the things it does run. Oh yeah - nuclear, but the kool-aid drinkers don't want to talk abotu that.

spec24

@shawn_dude:

[batteries are] toxic, and don't last very long.
Don't spout discredited lies. NiMH batteries are much less toxic than lead acid batteries in conventional cars. The nickel is valuable, so it can be recycled and is. The Think might use lithium-ion, which is less toxic still. "In the U.S., the battery pack of the 2004 Prius is warranted for 100,000 miles (160,000 km) or 8 years, although Toyota has stated that they expect it to last 15 years."

The reason rechargeable batteries don't last long in consumer devices is because the device doesn't carefully manage the battery charge/recharge.

Right now, hydrogen is a better battery.
Only if you ignore hydrogen's problems:

skierpage