@berribrand: Feeding fireflies Jägermeister and stuffing them into jars filled with compressed oxygen is clean though.

Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive

People, you do realize that power plants (you know, the ones that power incadescents) emit mercury into the air.

Over the life of an incandescent bulb, the average emissions of mercury directly into the air far outweigh the amount of mercury in a CFL (even when you include the mercury emitted into the air due to a CFLs power requirements). And the mercury in a CFL is only a danger if it breaks and spills such that you cannot clean it up or it is not disposed of properly (all businesses are required to dispose of CFLs properly, residences SHOULD dispose it properly unless they like drinking metallic balls.)

So, you have to think of the entire life cycle of a product.

berribrand

@itchytooth: Trade them in for LED shirts. The LED camp is gearing up for an offensive and is taking all angry incandescent supporters.

Log1c

What am I going to do with all my pro-incandescent shirts now?

itchytooth

Don't let the large smile and hands fool you. That is a ticking mercury bomb waiting to happen and let's not forget the silent, but deadly "ultraviolet fart"

Groggy Banana

Ah! The joys of hazardous waste.

tonashideska

@Lorne: Like, pretty big.

adamator

"Every time you use a CFL, God kills an incandescent bulb."

Please, think of the incandescent bulbs.

Chromeo

@adamator: Naturally. Because they are so similar as to be interchangeable.

And by that I mean, not at all.

ps61318

I was going to throw in an obligatory Canadian Football League (CFL) snark, but that is just one sad lamewad t-shirt.
How big of a loser would you have to be to wear such a thing?
I'm asking you, Giz commenters, how big of a loser would you have to be?
Also, go Blue Bombers for the 2008 Grey Cup.

Lorne

Love the shirt.

Not so crazy about the mercury.

ideaman2020

@adamator: Naturally, by "CFL," I meant incandescent.

adamator

Heh, badass.

I wish CFLs really and truly were dead. We have arrays of 6 of them in each elevator in the building where I work. They are like mini-heat lamps and the temperature in the elevator is always about 10 degrees warmer than the under-air-conditioned lobby. I really hate getting in those things after walking 15 minutes in the heat to get to my building. Is it really so much to ask for a few LEDs instead?

adamator

Good thing the CFL didn't get knocked over and break; we'd have a mercury spill to clean up.

Geisrud

And Nikola Tesla is now writing postcards in heaven, simply saying BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.

To Edison, in Hell.

Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive

@Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive: If the firefly's digestive systems react to jager the same way mine does, I'd take the mercury.

m4ximusprim3

rant on:
@adamator:
some of us wish all the hippies were dead too, but they get to live anyway. too bad you work in a crappy building, and too bad you haven't the time to ask for the LED's, because you spend your time whining here instead.
@Lorne:
really big loser dude, really big.
@ps61318:
true that
@Chromeo:
god doesn't kill them, but some evil asshat who wants to take your choice of lighting away from you rubs their hands in glee
@itchytooth:
send them to me, they will be worn proudly
@berribrand:
broken?, like when we have jedi lightsabre battles with old tubes, and throw cfls at smug dicks like you?
rant off:

are you getting the idea that i don't like being told what kind of lighting to use?
god, i am tired of you holier than thou enviro-assholes

godwhacker

It's a good thing Congress banned incandescent lights though... that probably helps the florescent cause.

Rabid Penguin

@johnnyabnormal: Whale oil lamps -- natural and renewable...

crenquis

Hey, did anybody hear CFLs have mercury in them?

bobdobbs' MBA misses LindsayJoy's MBP

Too bad people think CFL are not harmful to the environment. Please dispose them appropriately, as they contain mercury.

m-p{3}

@johnnyabnormal: I'm just gonna light some bums on fire and have them run around my house at night.

Rabid Penguin

@nocar: Yeah, they can pump out some horrible color. Pay attention to the "color temperature." Look for lamps that push light in the 2800 to 3300 K "warm light" range, they approximate incandescent light.

alowishus

@Log1c: Yes, LED will rule them all...

@berribrand: What is the "proper" method of disposing of mercury these days? And just what happens to the mercury after it has been "properly disposed of"?

ideaman2020

Screw it, I'm replacing all the bulbs in my house with candles.

johnnyabnormal

The color is awful on all the CFL bulbs I've used, has a greenish tinge. Would love to switch but right now they are not ideal replacements. They seem to be only a temporary fix until LED bulbs are an affordable solution. The mercury issue has been way overblown as Berribrand states above but hope they can fix the color to give the same light as an incandescent or halogen bulb.

nocar

@Log1c: Do they have an icon trade-in program too?

itchytooth

people bitching about mercury: [en.wikipedia.org] , but then again, youre probably the same people who would bitch about nuclear power.

danger_the_pirate

@godwhacker: Are you serious? Congress is the only authority that could ever make a worthwhile product actually sell. How do you think Chiapets became popular? You're still not allowed to own a dog in some states, people were forced to make the clearly superior decision.

Too bad about the music vest...

sisedi

@Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive: Just an FYI: tesla is god.

robotleawesome

@godwhacker: Talk to congress... those asshats feel the same way as these asshats. Gosh, I hate florescents... And I hate congress grrrr... And I hate candy corn... gosh, how I hate candy corn.

Rabid Penguin

@sisedi:
"Are you serious?"
totally

"Congress is the only authority that could ever make a worthwhile product actually sell."
by legislating your freedom to choose out of the picture because someones brother-in-law owns a cfl factory

"You're still not allowed to own a dog in some states, people were forced to make the clearly superior decision."
really, superior? are you telling me you are incapable of making a decision regarding dog ownership? or that there are "good" dogs and "bad" dogs? dogs are a reflection of their training, nothing more. now if you said that there are people that should be denied dog ownership, i would agree. but you don't take away everyones right to dog ownership because there are a few who are not suited for it.

godwhacker

Nice looking shirt.

That said, CFLs are fine in my house for the light that stays on all the time (the back of the basement above the cat's food bowl) - but I'll never put those shitty lights in real inhabited areas. I can't stand the 'office space' like light those things give off.

CFL=POS

bitfactory

I remember throwing a Frisbee across the room once and nicking the CFL bulb on the ceiling... it broke the bulb, i mean took a chunk right out of the loop...but the thing stayed lit for about 10 seconds...as the poisonous gases finally dissipated.

Rob C

@godwhacker: Ah, I see. Is your "anyone" also democratically elected? As much as I respect freedom of choice, I also don't want my neighbor shitting on my lawn.

johnnyabnormal

@bobdobbs' MBA misses LindsayJoy's MBP: I actually tried that one earlier today & it didn't work. I attached the script to my desktop folder (my default download folder)...no dice. What's even stranger is that the quarantine is only happening on the PPC G5, not my MacBook Pro.

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal:
anyone who takes away your freedom of choice for the sake of "your mother the earth"

godwhacker

@godwhacker: That said, I think the shirt pictured above should have the hands doing a "terrorist fist jab"...

[uk]

+ Watch video

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal: Here you go, bro:

[henrik.nyh.se]

bobdobbs' MBA misses LindsayJoy's MBP

@godwhacker: "god, i am tired of you holier than thou enviro-assholes"

Who is "you"?

johnnyabnormal

@Rabid Penguin: I heard that's popular with the kids these days...

johnnyabnormal

I gladly replaced all my incancesdents with CFLs, mainly because my house is old and I can get more light without exceeding the wattage rating of the fixtures. Mercury/shmercury. We're all going to get nuked by Osama anyhow.

bobdobbs' MBA misses LindsayJoy's MBP

@bobdobbs' MBA misses LindsayJoy's MBP:
@Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive:

Hey guys, off topic question: I just updated to Leopard & my Safari downloads are getting quarantined:

"...may be an application. It was downloaded from the Internet and will be opened by QuickTime Player. Are you sure you want to open it?"

Know a workaround?

johnnyabnormal

@jamstigator: I've tried all kinds of color temps - even packages that claim 'most natural light.' Negative.

GE's Reveal bulbs kick the mercury out of every CFL I'd tried.

bitfactory

CFLs come in different colors. Look for a kelvins rating. High kelvins, like 6500k, is a blue 'cool' bulb. Low kelvins, like 2100k, are reddish 'warm' bulbs. If you want something more natural, look for something between the two, like 4100k or around there. Fluoros have come a long way since the old days.

jamstigator

@godwhacker: That's what paintball guns were invented for...haha. Here's someone to add to your "can't own a dog" list:

[uk]

+ Watch video

@Rabid Penguin: But it's so much work to pick up my dog's turds already!

johnnyabnormal

LEDs FTW!

Palestina

Too bad CFL lights suck if you have sensitive hearing and eyes like me. Those fuckers suck the life right out of you when you have to work under them for 8-10 hours a day with little natural light. I'm hoping lighting tech skips a generation so we can bypass CFL adoption and go straight to LED's.

Cashak

@Rabid Penguin:
"Talk to congress... those asshats feel the same way as these asshats. Gosh, I hate florescents... And I hate congress grrrr... And I hate candy corn... gosh, how I hate candy corn."

just don't be hatin on circus peanuts, we will have an issue then

godwhacker

@johnnyabnormal:
"Ah, I see. Is your "anyone" also democratically elected?"
they can be, also those who would try to guilt you out of your freedom of choice by the catch phrases like but not limited to "it's for the children","your mother the earth"

"As much as I respect freedom of choice, I also don't want my neighbor shitting on my lawn."
good for you!!!!, and if they do crap on your lawn, i would expect that you would "educate" them to the error of their ways

godwhacker

@johnnyabnormal: How many times do I have to apologize for that? But to compare me crapping on your lawn to using incandescent light bulbs is apples and oranges.

Rabid Penguin

voted and watched.

mcknn

@Kaiser-Machead's got LindsayJoy's cookies on the SuperDrive:
YES.

@Lorne:
You, sir, have excellent taste.

The Sword Master

@johnnyabnormal:
hahhaahahahaha,

there ya go!!! typical reaction as well, "it's not my fault"
"it bites me too" "i told them to stay away"
no accountability, no solution. she believes that she is a victim of the dog!!!!

sad commentary, really

godwhacker

Let's see, I'm going to replace the bulbs, that I rarely have on, with ones that are dimmer than standard bulbs because they take time to warm up, causing me to feel as if I'm going blind every fucking time I turn them on.

Then I have to hope I don't ever drop and break ONE of those bulbs, because it releases enough mercury to have my house declared an environmental disaster area.

Why not simply push to have light switches replaced with motion sensors instead.

Oh, and CFLs work really well as dimmable mood lighting.

Xavoc

I love any article on CFL's. The comments section always have an import vs musclecar vibe that usually ends with me getting a headache.

Darkest Daze

What's the point? Everything's going to be LED in 10 years...

Ethan Allison

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

For some reason, the "green" agenda reminds me of the intelligent design movement.

No, thanks, hippie. I think I'll listen to the engineer.

soggy_cheerio

@godwhacker: Oh whacker of gods, the best part is you believed me. I was completely kidding but I also understand how with a liberal congress like ours, a federal dog ban isn't impossible.

sisedi

I'm with Cashak ... flourescent lighting messes with my vision and brain. The chances of me installing CFL in my home is going to take a Gestapo -esque regime run by Mao-styled culture armed vigilantes and then only if I can't find enough whale oil for my oil lamps.

Flourescence is just damned unnatural.

BlackFlag55

Anyone else notice that there are arms coming out of the sleeves, but there's no neck (label/print visible)?

photophile

@soggy_cheerio: Yeah, but what about the hippie engineers..?

ideaman2020

@sisedi:
here in the land of 10,000 taxes, there is a bill before the city council that will ban the keeping of certain large breed dogs. (rots, and such)

but, local ain't national, i have been had

(sheepish grin annnnnnnd exit)

godwhacker

@johnnyabnormal: Google: bacteria excrete oil

Rabid Penguin

@soggy_cheerio: No thanks, oil companies. I'll listen to the scientists is more like it.

@sisedi: Woof.

johnnyabnormal

Ahh yes, take a fully biodegradable recyclable product like the incandescent, replace it with a toxic mercury filled CFL that's made with non-recyclable plastic and lead filled electronics ... and call it green. Makes perfect sense.

All the greenie organizations are accusing PC makers of polluting the earth by using CFL backed LCD computer monitors, yet on the other hand they try to convince people to fill their houses with CFL bulbs. Can you say corporate handshakes!

Brau

@Rabid Penguin: Funny, I read about that this morning. Still doesn't solve pollution problems though... The thing that pisses me off is that you just know humans could have gotten off oil so many years ago. Just think of all the technological innovation that has taken place in just the past 20 years, but this has just kept chuggin' along. Of course the real problem isn't oil, it's breeding.

johnnyabnormal

Can't dim CFLs, LEDs are the future

mikecoscia

LEDs are the better way to go.

I read an article about a study where they replaced all the bulbs in a town with CFLs. They found that power usage didn't decrease because people kept the lights on longer.

LoganSix

@johnnyabnormal: Don't tell me you're a proponent of eugenics... You seem to be moving further and further to the dark side of the force.

Rabid Penguin

@Rabid Penguin: Ha! That's some creepy selective Nazi breeding... I'd support a cap. 1 to 2 kids per couple.

johnnyabnormal

@ideaman2020: The hippie engineers are the ones that actually realize that there's a sacrifice to be made.

@johnnyabnormal: Everyone has an agenda.

soggy_cheerio

@Rabid Penguin: Exactly!! Although China relaxed it's policy after the quake.

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal: Ah.. so more like what Communist China does? And any children that are born "above the cap" can be used as fuel to power your death star :c)

Rabid Penguin

Friends of the Earth, The Sierra Club, Greenpeace, the Environmental Defense Fund, Al Gore, the UN and other independent sources are urging bulb change. The EPA does as well but they're a government agency and somewhat controlled by politics. Australia (in 2009) and Canada (by 2012) are totally switching over to CFL . Nine other enlightened countries are right behind them.

YES! CFLs are controversial and I recognize that there's a lot of contradicting information out there and it's difficult to discern the truth. As for me, I'll put my trust in the people above. Besides, Rush Limbaugh's prediction of wholesale mercury poisoning and death for thousands in the near future, is to me, the most convincing argument that CFL bulbs are definitely the best way to go.

Quister

@johnnyabnormal: Good for China. That's such an overwhelming gesture of kindness that I almost shed a tear.

Rabid Penguin

Not all power plants emit mercury into the air(only 50% in the US and 20% in Canada).
Also, half of all of that mercury is captured by scrubbers and clean coal technology can capture the 2/3rds of what remains. Also the mercury that is released is much more safely dispersed.

On the contrary, there is relatively little in place to prevent all of the mercury within CFL bulbs from being released into the environment. Currently, there are 4 billion incandescent sockets, if they were all filled with CFLs there would be aboot 20 billion milligrams (50,000 pounds) of mercury spread around every single US household. That's about 50,000 pounds of mercury amongst 300 million people, if indiscriminately thrown away, will eventually find its way into the landfills and public water supply.

Unlike incandescent bulbs, CFL bulbs are mainly produced exclusively outside of the US (because of lax environmental laws), mainly in China and India. As Chinese manufacturers add enough manufacturing capacity to produce ten times as many CFLs (and they will as incandescent bulbs are being outlawed), they will need more and more coal-fired power plants to run the new factories. This comes on top of the already alarming pace today of construction in coal-fired electric power plants in China (about one new plant every week). One could fruitlessly waste their time trying to find out what kind of pollution control will be operating on those Chinese plants.

Overall the bulb is a net loss in terms of pollution and energy as the bulbs require aboot 9 times as much energy to produce and still need to be shipped extremely long distances and need extremely tight and secure plastic packaging (due to the long distance and the mercury).

angusarsehole

What is the typical wait time for liberals to understand they were wrong, and CFL's will be banned and blamed on the republicans?

Bladefist

algore update!!!!

[tennesseepolicy.org]

godwhacker

@Bladefist:
the typical wait time is as soon as it is apparent that the position won't work

so any day now

godwhacker

@Bladefist:

Ignorance? Are you saying I'm ignorant for calling you on regurgitating the bile that spews from the mouth of a buffoon like Rush Limbaugh? If you want to talk about a zealot, he is your man...not to mention being a pill-addicted shit-stained insult to radio. If you believe a word from that slob, you're not a zealot, you're just gullible.

Regarding Olberman or King and Liberals... I didn't say anything about endorsing any of them, so your "it's not" hypocrisy accusation falls flat.

"Slander"? Everything I said was true, so therefore the facts and record hold up against that charge.

Capitalism in the USA is failing because of unchecked greed. I also never championed socialism. In America, you don't have to be smart to be rich, just motivated and greedy. Shit, you don't even have to be smart to be President, which has been proven over the past 8 years, ad nauseam. Who did you vote for? Who do you think Rush voted for?

Hmmmm....

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal: I didn't know that much ignorance could be packed into one person.

I'm not a ditto head. I just heard him go through the list, and it was dead on.

If I mention I listen to Rush, I am quickly attacked for being some mindless zealot. But when liberals listen to Keith Olberman or Larry King, it's not. Don't you see the hypocrisy there?

You make a lot of slanderous statements. And I would say capitalism would be best to lead the 21st century into science and engineering. Why work your ass off at innovation, in a socialist country? Here, if you have the bright mind, you can become infinitely rich. What more motivation could you need?

Bladefist

The answers to our energy problems and all the woes that go with them will never come from an ideology that proudly embraces antiscience nonsense. A party led by quacks, frauds, faith-healers, creationists, and industry whores is ill-equipped to lead a technological super-power into the 21st century and beyond. That brighter future flows from the present just as it has in centuries past, from the minds of dedicated men and women who teach and practice the powerful twin disciplines of science and engineering.

johnnyabnormal

I think I smell me some small minded ditto-head Bushies on this thread...

johnnyabnormal

@Bladefist: Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it. Limbaugh is a douche bag and you need to read this from top to bottom:

[environment.newscientist.com]

johnnyabnormal

@godwhacker: Fantastic. Thanks for the link.

Mr. Limbaugh went through a list of all the things liberals have told us we need to change (and did) in the past, and how they are all wrong. And I just think they are amazing at forgetting their own failed policies, and making new ones. Right after the last person forgets about global warming, they'll start global cooling. And the media and everyone else will jump right in the wagon.

Bladefist

@johnnyabnormal: I pretty much agree with godwhacker, so I think you got the wrong impression about me.

Bladefist

@godwhacker: I couldn't have said that better myself! Except I wish the petro companies had the same passion for solar/wind/geothermal that they do for oil. Think of how much solar gets wasted...

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal:

as one who believes that we have the best and brightest now, and will have into the future. i would love to be witness to the next great leap of tech as i was when jfk gave us a mission to get to the moon by the end of the 60's.
there will be no "one solution" to the energy problem. (mini-arc reactors aside)
i think that a plan which includes nuclear, loosening the restrictions on refinery building, the elimination of boutique fuel blends, and the abolition of the IRS are good steps to a start.
exploration will be key in securing the intermediate needs of the country, yes, that means drilling in ANWAR as well as off the coasts of the US.
i have never lost the ideal that through hard work, and good old stick-to-itivness that we may find the way to that future
yes, it does sadden me to see the overbearing turd that government has become, and the total unwillingness to reduce the bloated entitlement structure that has arisen over the last 60 years, that has sapped the will for success from so many. that makes us all less in the long run.
i don't believe anyone should blindly drink the kool-aid that ANYONE is offering.
most of the elections in the last 30 years of my life have been about the electing the lesser of two evils
until we have real choice, the candidates beholding to no one, we will have to face the lesser of two evils scenario.

godwhacker

@Bladefist: Ha! Calling me ignorant because you believe a idiot like Limbaugh, then calling me a Socialist because I am critical of the Republican party? Hilarious.

You want some facts? Look at the skyrocketing deficit,
look at the mortgage crisis, the illegal surveillance, torture, secret prisons and other foreign policy disasters, Katrina, look at Iraq, look at jobs going overseas, the poor getting poorer, the rich getting richer, the poor voting for the rich to make them more poor, $4 a gallon while Exxon makes record profits, The dollar losing value, Americans getting so stupid they can't find their own country on a map, look at Republican "conservative" spending, Look at Republican politicians who want to amend the Constitution to include the Bible, etc...

You, my friend, are a 20%er. Which means your time is up this November = FAIL.

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal:

Ignorance? Are you saying I'm ignorant for calling you on regurgitating the bile that spews from the mouth of a buffoon like Rush Limbaugh?

"Slander"? Everything I said was true, so therefore the facts and record hold up against that charge.

You my friend are a socialist. Which in this free country is allowed. Enjoy.

Bladefist

consider what oil companies do, they are staying with what brought them to the dance. at this point solar, wind, geothermal do not have a proper cost/profit margin.
remember, that gallon of gas you pay for is mostly taxes, and cost for government compliance regs.

minnesota created an emissions compliance program like california, you had to get your car smog tested every year.
it was gone in less than ten years, and the powers that be congratulated themselves on a job well done. BULLSHIT!!!
the real story was that all the cars that were not in compliance either died, rusted away, or were totaled out.
natural selection, and market forces solved that problem, not government. government cannot create jobs, nor does it produce anything that passes for a product that people want, or need.

like churchill said: "democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time"

godwhacker

@johnnyabnormal: I like you. I think you're funny. But you're very misguided. Do you think Al Gore would have made a better President? Do you think John Kerry would have made a better President? I find that extremely difficult to believe. I'm not a big Bush fan myself, but he was better than the competition. As for this coming election, you're probably right. Obama stands a good chance of winning... which is sad. The Republican and Democrat choices this time around look even bleaker than the last selection. I'm voting third party myself. Our Supreme Court makes me cry...

You're definitely a misguided, environmental, crazy person. But you're funny, so as long as you don't get elected to public office we're okay :c)

One final thing though... most of the blame for our country's current situation is wrongfully placed on the President (or just the President). It's kind of a joint effort between the President and Congress to screw up the country, and I would be so bold as to blame Congress more.

...And don't get me started on the Supreme Court.

In the end though, I don't want to wait 30 minutes for my lights to "warm up." Bring on the incandescent. Screw you florescent.

Rabid Penguin

@johnnyabnormal: The Supreme Court has forgotten it's job. It's job is to look at the laws, and determine if they are constitutional. They are not supposed to be political, they are not supposed to bring their stupid ideologies into it. Their job description is real easy. And they're screwing it up.

Somebody must have told them they are congress #2. Because right now, that's what they are doing. So regardless if you agree w/ their decisions, we should all be scared that the checks and balances of powers is dead.

Bladefist

@Rabid Penguin: As far as I am concerned our two parties don't deserve to be called democrat and republican any longer. Most of the citizens are still in line with the parties original ideologies, but the politicians, are not.

I say from now on, our two parties are Independents and Socialists.

Bladefist

@Rabid Penguin: HAHAHAHA... I love that you're calling me crazy. As much as I don't like Kerry or Gore, I still think they are way more competent than Bush. Many believe Bush is quite possibly the worst president we've ever had. But! That aside, why am I "misguided" and "environmental"? Because I don't like Bush? Because I believe scientists instead of pundits? Did I tell you I'm running for office? Just kidding.

If you could vote now, would it be Obama or McCain?

Btw, not blaming everything on Chimpy. Many people are to blame, Republican and Democrat. Did the Supreme Court piss you off recently? I bet I can guess why...hahaha. I say screw you incandescent, bring on LED.

@Bladefist: Ok. Truce for now then. :)

johnnyabnormal

@Rabid Penguin: Good 'ol Ronnie Paul! If I could combine the best parts of Obama, Ron Paul and McCain (circa 2000)....wishful thinking. Either way, whomever is elected in '08 will be able to speak complete sentences!

johnnyabnormal

@johnnyabnormal: "If you could vote now, would it be Obama or McCain?" Neither... I'm going third party this go around. :c)

Rabid Penguin

@johnnyabnormal: But the sentences won't mean a damn thing :c)

Rabid Penguin

@Rabid Penguin: I feel how you feel. totally disappointed with our nominees. But, a vote for a 3rd party is just really taking a vote away from the main 2. And at first, I felt the same way, thought maybe I would teach them a lesson. But the fact is, one of the 2 is going to win. If Obama wins, you can expect at least 2, possibly 4 liberals put into the supreme court, and they'll pretty much undo everything and turn it into Western Europe. Also Obama will raises taxes and start universal health care. Actually he plans to do it during his honey moon period.

A vote for McCain is a vote against socialism. That's how I see it. I ask that you please reconsider.

Bladefist

@Bladefist: According to Obama, those who are making below 250,000 a year will be getting more tax breaks than they get now under Bush. So unless you're raking it in, your taxes won't go up. Universal health care is sticky though... Obviously nobody wants anything worse than what we have now and there are probably many ways it could go completely wrong. I also wouldn't be too worried about the Supreme Court. Unless someone retires, he can't appoint squat. Btw, ever been to Western Europe? They don't live too bad! I'd be pretty surprised if Obama didn't get elected...but if you're that disappointed, imagine Shillary as prez.

johnnyabnormal

someone say ron paul?

nutbastard

@nutbastard: Hahaha...

johnnyabnormal

@Bladefist: Yeah, it's too bad. Everyone should just say: Screw the democrats and republicans. And just vote constitutional or libertarian this go around.

Rabid Penguin

@Rabid Penguin: It was his Iraq war thoughts. You cant win in a republican race if you're for total withdraw. That was his issue. Everything else about him was really good stuff. His only other problem was he sounded (his physical voice) like an old crazy guy. But, he was very fact based, and he was probably the most informed person up on the stage.

Bladefist

@johnnyabnormal: Thats the problem. There are some retiring justices coming up. I also don't think Obama will win. He isn't smart enough. He'll get dominated in the general election debates. Without a teleprompter he soundns like somebody drowning.

uhh uhh uhh hahau huhuh uh give the kid a huh huhhuh breathlyizer.

Democrats will vote for him. People on the fence will not.

Bladefist

@nutbastard: It's too bad about him ;c( People (even Republicans) just wrote him off as crazy, when he was definitely the best of the bunch. I may go Constitutional or Libertarian... not sure yet...

Rabid Penguin

@Rabid Penguin:

YOU CAN STILL WRITE HIM IN!!!

nutbastard

@Bladefist: But then McCain sounds senile to me... It will be a very interesting debate match-up.

johnnyabnormal