href="#c4622963">FatherStorm: Now THAT is finally some sanity.

@fastm3driver: Does Ballmer sign your checks, or do you have direct deposit?

tamoko

@mrsteve007: Finally some sanity.
@Kaiser-Machead: Apple is BS. I've used time machine and I have a WHS and I prefer the WHS by leaps and bounds. The interface is super simple to retrieve old files and the system restore is so simple its silly. It's fast and efficient and does so much more than a NAS.
Everyone I show the HP to says it's so good they wouldn't bother to build one and are going to buy one as soon as possible.
And anyone who thinks it's expensive is a fool. It's cheaper than almost every comparable NAS but can do so much more. I paid $580 for the 1TB version that comes with 2 Seagate HD's. Best computer money I've ever spent.

fastm3driver

@FatherStorm: Your test is difficult, since I could name very, very few computer industry products in the last five years that are in no way derivative.

You bring up Google -- what's Google done that's really innovative lately? Cloud apps weren't invented by Google, free email wasn't invented by Google, contextual advertising wasn't invented by Google. Search engines sure weren't. Google's strength is in simplifying, polishing, and integrating their services extremely well.

I'm not really trying to defend MS here, I'm just saying that I don't think "number of obvious breakthroughs" is the yardstick here.

typoink

@nidinp:
Plz dnt snd txt msgs 2 this 4um.
LOL OMG

Mayor McRib

@jagowar: ha ha I totally agree... Microsoft, since the release of Windows 95, has consistently released Beta... no... Alpha builds of their software on to the public. This is just another example. It ISN'T hard for Microsoft to test whether or NOT WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER will corrupt data or not. Pathetic.

BookbagNinja

what happened to MS? simple. MS became IBM.
After a certain point, MS became entrenched so deply within their own bureaucracy that it no longer was a "cool" place to work. Sure still a "lucrative" place, but the type of emplyees you get for the "lucrative" place are different than the ones you get for the "cool" place. There's nothing intellecually wrong with prooly 96% of their programmers, but the ones that go there have a mindset to start with, that MS reinforces that things work a certain way. the MS way. So... when a problem comes up that is new and unique, the box is drawn around their little heads so tightly that they have no hope of finding a radically new approach to solving it. All they can do is dig in the existing documented bag of tricks and find something that is MS approved. On the other hand, some companies (Google anyone?) prefer to hire the people who ride the very fine edge of the rules and are a bit more used to finding a original and unique solution to a problem. Sometimes you have to concentrate on solving the problem, and then going back and figuring out just how you managed to solve it instead of following a documentable and planned course of solution laid out in stone. When MS starts hiring coders that can "intuit" a solution again, (Assuming anyone like that would want to work there...) they'll get their stuff together again.
as proof, name one truly unique, product MS has developed in the last 5 years that wasn't simply derivative of either their own or someone else's design.

FatherStorm

@nidinp: i can has bullshit?

No one claimed that Apple invented system backups, so why bring it up? Also, Windows' system restore functions are not nearly as user friendly as Time Machine is when it comes to backing up/retrieving files/restoring volumes off of the external drive. What Apple is boasting is ease of use on top of this feature, which is important.

Kaiser-Machead

i think i does what its supposed to well!!
the reason y windows home servers dont come with monitor ports is coz you dont mess around with the system settings!
when you remote desktop to the home server to install you torrent or watever.. a ie page opens up asking you not to screw around!
this is exactly the reason y apple locks up their software!and it was a smart move!
but if MS had locked up their software... im sure u ms bashers would complain abt tht too!
and note to apple fanboys saying apple invented system backup with their time machine... you could always do tht with windows since way back!MS dint think it was tht much of feature to boast abt! or their marketing team wasnt smart enough to advertise abt it!

nidinp

@boe: The Ballmer issue bugs me too. He's seemingly oblivious to some obvious issues, issues that are often directly linked to their cash cow product lines..

I miss Bill. I never cringed when I read an interview with him, or watched a video clip from a big release event, or consumer show.

tamoko

@boe: There was a change 2 or 3 years ago...I can't put my finger on exactly what it was - some kind of shift in the way MS handled both development and business processes. I was impressed with the concept of WHS when they first exposed it to the light of day...now I just run Ubuntu Server - simple, efficent, and has an army of developers around the globe improving it by the minute.

tamoko

Microsoft has quality bars? Like you can get a decent whiskey there or something?

turly

You know I've been using MS products for about 25 years and other than Clippy, Windows ME and Bob - most have been pretty good. Something VERY wrong happened about two years ago and I can't figure it out -

MS Exchange - the writers of the program notified us they werver very upset they never got a chance to complete the GUI in time for release so MS told us how POWERSHELL - AKA DOS from 20 years ago was a better way to manage servers.

ZUNE - what can one say.

Vista - other than MS Fanboys, it has been rejected by the IT community, technical journalists and the public in general.

Come on MS get your $#!+ together - I'm not anti-MS nor am I an linux of Mac fanboy. I am however anti crap. While I'm not a huge fan of apples because I'm a control freak, I do have to admit their ipod is great and the iphone has some great features which will be made pretty complete by the new activsync in June.

I don't think MS is incapable of creating a good OS or applications but lately they don't seem to listen to the public in general. Ballmer is in his own little world - whenever he's asked about the problems in Vista he side steps the question and just said MS has sold a lot of Vista (does he think we don't know he's counting all the copies that were forced on the public when Dell, HP, Sony, lenovo etc were forced to only sell Vista?

boe

WHS was something I was really looking forward to. I had purchased the software several months ago while in Japan before it was available OEM here and got my server online shortly after that. I was really excited by the connectivity, backup and management features that worked turnkey out of the box, much more than a simple NAS. I WAS excited. I've come to find that the server software is incredibly buggy and difficult to maintain. I've had to completely rebuild the server when the MBR was corrupted because I used the reset switch to restart as opposed to using the shutdown command. And the install DVD does not have an option to repair an installation. Also, software updates have caused the management console not to work, and while it is not working you cannot install the connector software on any new machine. WTF MS? Having a crash or a freeze up once in a while was acceptable, but latelyt you baseline features just don't work. Your software has become an embarrassment.

skurtis.1

The only thing WHS is *barely* good for is the nightly backup of all the PCs on your network. This works reliably and has saved me a few times. Other than that, I trust it for nothing!

scarbrtj

@ronnsprocket:
just download and boot from the ubuntu live cd - you can check it out w/o installing anything. command line stuff is like a foreign language, but not difficult (and hardly necessary) to use.

pretty much it's a bitch to set up some hardware but no worse than windows, just different, and once you get it configured it'll just run and run and run.

nutbastard

@scoobydoo: So then it's safe to assume that this is a DO NOT WANT kind of situation.

Kaiser-Machead

ohhhh it's not since Christmas... I was in on the beta last year about this time and the bug has been there since then, they knew it and did nothing about it.

RobOnt

@mrsteve007: BS.

They keep adding programs to that list. In my case the stupid server corrupted a Truecrypt volume I had stored on it.

MS started with 2 programs, then 5, and now it's essentially anything that writes to files that are on the server.

It's turned an $800 investment into something I can no longer reliably use.

Microsoft FUCKED UP big time here. This is the kind of bug that should have been fixed in DAYS, not months.

They are a bunch of incompetent jackasses who clearly don't understand the importance of the product they are working on.

scoobydoo

I've already lost files thanks to this POS.

The bug has been known since December.

Can someone say "class action"?

scoobydoo

I have a dell dimension running xp. I am using a PCI sata controller to attach my 750gb (3 partitions) drive that i ripped out of my external case. 2 of the partition are of hfs, and i have the accessed with macdrive. and...and...using itimemachine to timemachine my macbook pro to that bitch. and it is shared to my 360.

can someone convince me to switch to ubuntu. i would love to, but i dont know shit about the penguin. i need a PCI sata driver and a way to let my 360 recognize it.

is it dumb to switch? i want the stability. i have to reset this xp once a week, else the computer loses its train of thought.

ronnsprocket

@mrsteve007: This is not solely a "backup" device, it is a SERVER. If I want to share my quickbooks data file to others on my network for direct editing, a server is the way to go... just not this one apparently.

mikeness

@TurboFool: I have to agree with you totally. I almost laid down the money the get the HP version, but I found out about the bug on digg just 2 days before I placed the order.

nuggett76

@mrsteve007:
yeah i won't deny im being a dick based solely on hearsay. guilty as charged.

but it's more fun this way.

nutbastard

Sigh - nothing more than the typical Gizmodo MS bashing. If any of you bothered to read their release, it only involves these programs when editing backed up files directly on the Home Server.

"• Windows Vista Photo Gallery
• Windows Live Photo Gallery
• Microsoft Office OneNote 2007
• Microsoft Office OneNote 2003
• Microsoft Office Outlook 2007
• Microsoft Money 2007
• SyncToy 2.0 Beta
• Intuit QuickBooks
• uTorrent

Windows Home Server-based computers that have a single hard drive are not affected by this issue, nor are Windows Home Server Computer Backup and Restore capabilities, Health Monitoring, and Remote Access functionality."

So, lets see, there are *no* issues with computer backup and restore, and it only causes issues when you edit your backed up files from 9 specific programs. Since when has it ever been a good idea to work directly with and edit your backed up files?

I agree it's an important issue to take care of, but it's fairly easy to avoid. Giz should make note that it only affects a small number of programs, versus their sweeping insinuations that all of the user's data could be lost at any moment.

mrsteve007

@Kaiser-Machead: Google: "Time Machine with Flux Capacitor" or do some SMB/NFS sharing read: [www.pherg.net]

thechansen

How unfortunate, really. This was a kickass concept that I've been looking forward to using for some time now, but since its primary uses are dead in the water for now, looks like I've got some waiting to do.

TurboFool

@Kaiser-Machead:
Ubuntu Server dude.

Don't fear the penguin.

[www.ubuntu.com]

nutbastard

What is the point of Windows Home Server? I would really like to know. There are a ton of cheaper products on the market that make automated backing up/cloning/etc a piece of cake.

For instance, my iMac uses my ol' PowerMac as it's Time Machine back up point. Before I dropped that PowerMac to server status, I was using a PC running linux to mirror my entire hard drive once a week and .Mac to have an online backup of reallllly important documents.

Pro tip: why settle for USB or Firewire speeds when you can have gigabit ethernet hooked up to a computer with SATA drives? Just find a $50 Pentium 4 on craigslist and start throwing hard drives into the thing. Linux and free/low cost backup utilities are your friend. twonkyvision.com offers a solution for the whole 360 media streaming thing for linux, and I'm sure there is free software that does the same.

thechansen

Microsoft Sez: Don't use our stuff!

Shit, Apple's been saying that for YEARS.

Can't they do anything without Apple doing it first?

nutbastard

reason 3838375474774 to never adopt a first version of a product.

jagowar

How hard is it to turn an old Dell Dimension into a home server unit without Windows Server? I'm certain it can be done, I just don't know exactly what to do.

Kaiser-Machead

Once the patch has passed internal quality bars, external participants will be asked to help test the fix.

I don't know that I would want to test something like that on my server. I thought external participants meant anyone who ran Vista?

Mayor McRib

@enine:
yeah can you imagine "mv" bugging out, let alone bugging out and taking months to be fixed?

MS: Moving files seems to be something you suck at lately. What. The. Fuck. Moving files. As in, taking files from somewhere, ad putting them somewhere else. Don't mean to be a dick, just making sure you understand what you need to accomplish.

Hint: Methods for moving files can be found before chapter 4 in any book on programming.

nutbastard

Do not taunt Windows Home Server. Windows Home Server my stick to certain types of skin.

How hard is it to make an operating system save files anyway?

draconis2941

_June_? Geez, they're not exactly barn-burning on this one.

Erwos

I'm reminded again why my home server runs linux.

enine

@jonthomasdesigns:
MS does not recommend the storage of Things, and suggests you download their handy conversion tool for changing your Things into Stuff.

nutbastard

For a company that has 90% of the OS market share, you'd think they would have figured out a few years ago.

Joseph

I'm pretty darn close to being a Microsoft apologist, but wow... "Don't use our Server to, well, um... serve" wtf?

mikeness

Wow, unbelievable. They're unable to repair a data corruption bug for 6+ months? Isn't this thing basically just a NAS device with a few added features like media streaming? I'll stick with my Thecus N5200, thanks.

IphtashuFitz

Awesome ! glad i have over 4TB's of Things backed up on my HP mediasmart server running windows home server ..

jonthomasdesigns

So this s**t doesn't really work...

Aberracus

Once the fix passes their own quality control (which home server NEVER went through) they will release it. har har

tek_nic

@thebear91:
Well actually I think this is a bigger deal then what you make it out to be. This isn't "don't run app xyz", this is "here's a non exhaustive list of what you can't run, and don't run media either something that this was marketed it can do" This is actually VERY serious. Servers do NOT corrupt files, if they do, there is something seriously wrong. Microsoft has a history of making (Arguably) good server products which are getting better all the time. Personally I run a server (not home server), and use it to stream music, video, source files, doc files, email, etc etc, eveything home is supposed to do, and then some. I've had zero data corruptions.

Microsoft will fix this i have no doubt, but they really dropped the ball on this.

Reapman

@BookbagNinja: Agreed but that said WHS has a ton of potential and all of the issues will be fixed by version 2 which is the one i was going to start with. WHS already does a bunch of really cool things but it has a few flaws (needs to do more than just backup computers.... need some acct management a la a simple domain and media center added as a server). When those things get added its going to be a great platform.

jagowar

People need to really learn how to read. I'm not a M$ fan, but this is something that many servers suffer from with certain applications.

I guarantee, that if you use, for example, Intuit Quickbooks and keep your data files on a server, you're data files will become corrupt at some point. Single drive, multiple drive, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether it is a M$ server, Apple Server, or Linux server. This particular program has severe problems when anything happens with the remotely mounted disk. Just a glitch in the network connection can be the cause.

This bug is very very specific and probably is a problem on many other client/server setups, but it is just rare because those specific Applications are not used on other platforms.

thebear91

@mrsteve007:
Per MS:
"OTHER PROGRAMS
Users have reported potential corruption issues when they use other programs to edit or transfer files that are stored on Windows Home Server-based computer that has more than one hard drive. For more information, see the following list. Microsoft is in the process of trying to reproduce the issues and directly assess the causes. The nature of the issues precludes Microsoft from providing a definitive list of affected applications. If users believe they have evidence that they are experiencing the issue, please send a detailed e-mail of their circumstances to whsforum@microsoft.com so that Microsoft can try to validate the cause and provide specific guidance.
• Photoshop Elements
• Zune Software
• Apple iTunes
• TagScanner
• Mozilla Thunderbird
• Adobe Lightroom
• Intuit Quicken
• MS Digital Image Library
• MP3BookHelper
• ACDSee
• WinAmp
• Windows Media Player 11
• Microsoft Office Excel
• Visual DataFlex"

Note the sentence"The nature of the issues precludes Microsoft from providing a definitive list of affected applications." which means, "Nothing is particularly safe, trust nothing but the Explorer interface". This also means, "Hey, don't plan on using your MEDIA SERVER to serve media with any off the wall and rarely used/adopted programs like WMP, or WinAmp, or VideoLan or ITunes or sync with your Zune, or use it to store your data files (Like I do on my Drobo) with Photoshop or anything crazy. MS is in effect saying, buy our product to solve your media storage/access needs, just don't try to access them with any thing short of Windows Explorer. Kinda takes the purpose out of it all. Glad I have a mapped Drobo on my network and just let everything pull from / place to it..

FatherStorm

Hmm, maybe they should have passed WHS through the "internal quality bars" before releasing it...

MrThunderfield

@MINI Driver: It affects the MS office suite for the past decade? You must have forgotten about office 2003, XP, & 2000. Other than onenote for 2003, it's only an issue with the latest suite.

The question is: why would anyone place their primary outlook files onto the home server? I understand letting it backup your local outlook files, which it does perfectly and without issue. The only problem is when you host the files remotely and then edit the remote file through the program. It's not designed to be an exchange server.

My previous comment still stands. There is a problem with NAS capabilities for a few programs. They need to fix it asap. But for Gizmodo to claim in their headline that MS says "users not to write to server or use media managers" is just yellow journalism. The problems are limited to a handful of programs, and only under select conditions (multiple hard drives, remote editing within the programs). For automated backups and restoration of local PCs or Macs, along with all other functionality WHS has no corruption issues. Giz should put that in their post.

mrsteve007

Windows Server 2003, with 2 Terrabytes. At least if there's a problem I know it will be fixed!

Linux servers are also so easy to build

lithivm

@FatherStorm:
this is the same problem sony has - they keep using huge libraries of code for a couple functions, but won't dump all the cruft. unmodified, unsplit legacy code == bad
while optimized legacy code == constructive evolution.

nutbastard

@typoink: Respectfully. How often do you go to Google Labs? Admittedly, not much of what goes on there makes it to market, but there has been some brilliant coding going on there. Sometimes it's more about doing something with absolutely no real-world application , just to work out what's possible, and then use those pieces later. back in '01 I was writing a sidebar application for a ISP I worked at that did basically what AJAX does now. this of course is no big deal now, but then was a bit past what anyone else was doing commercially. and now I use AJAX freely and constantly as I have my own feel for what it 1.) CAN do, and 2.) SHOULD do. it was of limited use then since browser support was iffy, but it paid off in huge dividends for when the market acceptance was ripe. Same thing for doing PHP images on the fly. Was doing that as soon ad GD was there for PHP and now I'm going back and creating web apps for people that are almost identical to what I was doing for myself and for just plain practice 5 years ago. Marketed tech is not the same as developed tech. Great ideas often have to wait for the market to want and be ready for them. that's what it means to be visionary, the ability to see what someone WILL want, even if they don't know it yet.
The best of what Google does will probably never bee seen as it's hidden behind what looks plain. My most elegant code has always been transparent. My reps never knew that the "button" they clicked did a AJAX call (before formal AJAX) to another box, which in turn did SNMP or HTTP calls to devices at customer houses and set/fetched info and "magically" turned equipment on/off. It just looked like a form button to them. that's where the beauty is.

FatherStorm

@typoink:
no but google does all of those things better than anyone else - toyota didn't invent the automobile, for an analog.

nutbastard

This is hilarious - if you mention TimeCapsule you get your head handed to you by rabid MS Whores, who tell you it's 'nothing new', and that 'MS have done it all already'.

Then a week later, we hear the real truth.. MS have royally fuc#ed up basic file storage, have known about the issue since beta testing, yet have still not fixed the problem.

Karma is just bleepin' wonderful - LMMacAO!!

Oh, and @ mrsteve007>

Saying it only effects... And then listing the full MS suite for the last decade, is hardly a resounding vote of confidence for the product.

Just admit it - it sucks!

MINI Driver

wow, I am not buying home server for a long time now. It like paying for your data to be destroyed!

simmo

And this is why you build yourself a cheap-ass server and install Linux on it if you want a full-featured NAS.

Incidentally, this is also why I hate microsoft.

HeartBurnKid

@ronnsprocket:

Someone already pointed out try the Ubuntu Live CD, it doesn't install anything on your drive, but for Server use you'll have to make the plunge and do an install. I'd recommend installing to a seperate drive if you can, and keep your windows partition safe in case you want to go back.

The software for viewing media on your 360 I think you want is MediaTomb. It's a DLNA server and I use it to stream stuff to my PS3 (360 supports DLNA I think, or uPNP as it's called too) Google and the Ubuntu forums are your friend for that, but once you get the idea of how to use it, you can get it up and running in a couple of minutes, then configure it through a web interface (not pretty but does the job)

Ubuntu as a SERVER will take a bit of work to get going, but the community is immense (check the forums out) and you'll learn what actually happens behind the scenes.

Reapman

@thebear91: This bug is very very specific and probably is a problem on many other client/server setups, but it is just rare because those specific Applications are not used on other platforms.

Actually, many of the programs in the affected and potentially affected list so far ARE used on other platforms in similar ways without any issues. For instance, WMP and utorrent (which uses hashing of the data to verify it was received correctly) are used with remotely mounted disks relatively often (not "common" but not "uncommon"), and they don't have the issues of data corruption unless something is wrong with the hardware. If the bug is reproducible, as MS states, it would only make sense that they would be checking to see if it happens on other platforms as well and note that as well. However, they didn't, so the logical conclusion is that the bug only affects WHS.

geowrian

@mrsteve007:
You missed the huge list of other programs that are believe to be affected but they don't really know why. Many of those programs WOULD be used for many people to directly edit files on the server.

Also, I don't know why MS doesn't get this, but WHS is a SERVER OS. I think their "home" product line programmers made WHS...because it certainly isn't being treated like a server OS. I'm a systems admin...I deal with server OSes (Windows, Linux *Redhat, SuSE, etc.), Unix, etc.) all day, and they all hold up decently and have their ups & downs. When you have bugs you fix them ASAP. You do massive testing prior to making releases, etc. None of this seems to hold true for WHS...so I wouldn't trust it with the backup of my data. The current program list may not be massive, but it's certainly big enough to make me wonder if my data will be intact the next time I really need it.

geowrian

WHS is not a NAS.

I've been running since beta and have not seen this problem.

It is not some huge widespread thing that is killing all ur dataz.

Thanks for the FUD Giz, you're on top of things and unbiased as always.

olafson

My (Netgear) Infrant ReadyNAS NV+ = No Touble. None. 7 protocols. 1.5TB, all good.
MS is soooo worried about giving away or cheapening the "Core" Windows Server technology, this is what they get when trying to be cheap and slick. Somebody falls on their A**.

reefdweller

@FatherStorm:

As the husband and friend to countless drones who work at the MS, you hit the nail on the head. The sheer number of managers/VP's is staggering. The money is great as are the beni's, but sweet jesus, is hard to get anything done there.
My favorite conversation is when the discussion is on pruducts sharing the same contacts data base.

freakshow1

@nidinp: Main difference. Time Machine actually works. I'm a Windows user. Have been since Win/386. I bought one of the first Win3.0 retail boxen that included the original bus mouse and 5.25" floppies.

I've been trying to use System Restore since it came out. It's a JOKE. Not once, NOT ONCE has System Restore worked for me. The cure to fix most System Restore issues? Turn it off and turn it back on. Which conveniently wipes all previous restore points. Cue gnashing of teeth and banging forehead against desk. It's almost like they DESIGNED it not to work. Time Machine OTOH? Just about flawless. It certainly doesn't suffer from the boneheaded limitations that totally neuter system restore.

WTF use is it if a malware infection renders it unusable???? Or if restoring to a previous point bungles an upgraded software package? Having seen what can happen when a restore DOES complete, it's almost better that the system says it can't be done!

Buford T. Justice

@HeartBurnKid: Amen!!

tamoko

I'm posting with no biases here. I run a Vista Media Center Based HTPC and would like to serve my ripped DVDs, and recorded to TV Shows to the rest of the house. I know there are sharing restrictions with this( Don't start), for example I use two cable card tuners. I've read correctly or incorrectly that I can even serve these files with WHS, which is why I was considering this WHS in addition to the usual backup duties. Can I share these files with Linux as well?

rantanamo

another reason why I switched to Linux. I spent maybe one day playing with ubuntu and I already have it figured out. Plus, if you have a problem, just google it and the ubuntu forums will tell you exactly how to fix it.

cmc341

For 2nd ed. "Mommy, Why is There a Server in the House?" by Tom O'Connor:
Page 11: "And the files don't get lost, even when bad things happen to your computers. Because they're all backed up in a special place...on the server! Maybe! Sometimes the server doesn't keep all your data. That might make you sad. Don't worry about it though. Think of it as a fun game of chance!"

shinythings