@dallasmay2: Because, when you give your software away for free, that doesn't leave you with much of a marketing budget, dig?

HeartBurnKid

@nutbastard:
[www.dell.com]

Try that again, and tell me how you got to the Ubuntu page. The shortest way I could find was to click on "Home/Home Office" the scroll down the page ignoring all of the pretty pictures of computers and click on the little text at the bottom that says "Open Source OS".

No one that is not specifically looking for Linux on a Dell is going to get there. Like I said, they exist, but they are hard to find.

dallasmay2

nutbastard have you seen ubuntu lately? it's brown. --RACISTS!

god we are so dumb to have used ubuntu.

THANK YOU GIZ for bringing a NutBASTARD exclusive.

GIZ + NUT '08 i fucking love you guys!

oo0cyst0oo

@dallasmay2: @nutbastard: Also, [www.system76.com]

HeartBurnKid

@madcoweater: Every computer I've ever tried to set up with multiple monitors has been a complete success with linux.(Although I've only tried 3 or 4) Every computer I've tried to set up multiple monitors with windows has been a pain in the ass(I'd rather my software did what I asked it to instead of trying to outsmart me and reset all my changes to a preferred setup) The only problem I've had in that department is there is no support beyond monochrome for the s-video output on my laptop in linux

illiniguy

@nutbastard:

On a different topic, why hasn't Linux, Ubuntu or otherwise, done any advertising? No one will just stumble onto Ubuntu.org and download a copy of the disk. Why isn't there a larger advertising campaign to inform people about the advantages. People will probably trust you more if they see you on TV with a few actors around their computer.

dallasmay2

@madcoweater: Can't say I've tried that, but you do bring up a good point. Ubuntu, and indeed, any flavor of Linux, is a tinker's OS. Ubuntu especially works OK out of the box, and you can definitely get things done in it, but chances are, you won't be getting the most out of your hardware unless you're willing to get elbow deep in things, learn new ways of doing things, and ask questions. Then again, that's really true of any OS other than the one that came with your computer (and that's only because the OEM already did all the heavy lifting).

It's definitely not for everyone, but it's not as scary, drab, or geeky as many people like to paint it either. It's another option, perhaps one that requires a bit more legwork than some of the others, but it does what it does very, very well.

HeartBurnKid

@dallasmay2:
"Apple has that step going for them. They can guarantee that there will be computers with OSX pre-installed."

Ahem:

[www.dell.com]

nutbastard

@dallasmay2:
saying you installed ubuntu 6 so 8 is still crappy is like saying OS 9 sucked so OS X is crappy (OS 9 DID suck - 7.5.3 was the best classic Mac OS ever.)

nutbastard

@nutbastard:
"so" == "no"

nutbastard

@nutbastard:

"just don't reformat the whole hard drive and you'll be fine - the partition editor on the install disc is very nice, but you will have to know the difference between, say, ntfs and fat32..."

That is another problem with Linux. If you don't have a lot of confidence in yourself, you are not going to even try it. You might try it if it came pre-installed on a new computer, but there aren't many of those and they are hard to find.

Apple has that step going for them. They can guarantee that there will be computers with OSX pre-installed.

dallasmay2

@Lizard_King:
so, just showing that there are varying kinds of weird people that make mysterious decisions, i wouldn't imply you voted for bush - I'm not that low!

nutbastard

The reason I hate linux is because of the god damn terrible multi monitor support. Everyone uses 3 monitors right? Thats why its never going to be widely used.

madcoweater

@dallasmay2: Ah, see, there's your problem; Compiz wasn't included on the disc until 7.10.

Seeing the whole thing in motion is quite a treat, and it's something that doesn't really come through in screenshots.

HeartBurnKid

@dallasmay2: No insult taken, although I do think nutbastard just lumped me in with people voting for George Bush twice....

Lizard_King

@ParJoe:
"I plan on trying it out when I have another place to move/back up my important files. I just can't risk losing them if I mess up the install."

just don't reformat the whole hard drive and you'll be fine - the partition editor on the install disc is very nice, but you will have to know the difference between, say, ntfs and fat32...

nutbastard

@Lizard_King:

Sorry to have obviously insulted you. That was not my intention. I was actually trying to point out a flaw in Ubuntu. Not windows.

dallasmay2

@Lizard_King:
And some people voted for Bush - Twice.

Some people are just weird : )

nutbastard

@dallasmay2:
ok then i retract my challenge somewhat - theres a BIG difference between 6 and 7, probably the biggest difference there ever was between ubuntu releases.

nutbastard

@HeartBurnKid:
yeah i seriously doubt he has.

@dallasmay2:
i promise this won't hurt - download ubuntu, burn a cd, and boot into it. it'll boot slow, coming off the cd but it won't touch your hard drive. just try the basic UI - no MP3s are not going to play out of the box as the codecs are not included, and firefox will require plugins to enable all web content. I don't want to hear about that. Just your impressions of the UI.

nutbastard

@HeartBurnKid:

Yes, believe it or not, I have used (and installed) Ubuntu. I tried it out first on an old Dell back in 5.05 I think. I was a little disappointed with it then but stuck with it through 6. I never did instal 7.1 because I got a new Macbook and stopped using my Dell.

My brother in law uses Ubuntu 7 for his primary computer. So yes, I have had plenty of experience with Ubuntu. And I think they will have a long way to go to get me back.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2: "The only reason people buy windows is because they think they have no other choice."

Do you really think there is no person out there choosing Windows of his/her own free will? Maybe Windows does something the other OSes do not. If I could work out how to use Linux with my iPod (c'mon Songbird!) properly, if I could get OSX to work with GPS software (Bobcat SUCKS!) I *might* switch. Some of us have seen other OSes, and still like Windows.

Lizard_King

whoa! this thread is full of nutbastard.

Amiash

"If your mother installed Ubuntu today, her first impression when she turns it on the first time should be to say, "Wow! That is so neat. I think I like this."

Ubuntu doesn't have that right now."

she'd love it because it's minimalist. other people would love it for the way-beyond-vista eye candy. other people would love it for running much faster than windows, not really needing UAC or even antivirus.

"a geeky hobby"
what 'hobby'? I don't sit around tweaking things in the console, i boot up, run firefox, writer, etc... just like on any other computer, i run applications. I edit documents. exactly the same stuff i'd be doing if i ran windows, except a lot more reliable, slick and intuitive. it doesn't crash, and theres nothing i want to do that i can't, and being someone who does slightly more than the average user, the average user will find that everything they want to do, they can without hinderence.

nutbastard

@nutbastard: That's the Red Herring: NONE of them are particularly intuitive in isolation, as what we tend to think of as being intuition is really mostly learned behaviour. We tend to have expectations based on what we already know. So we tend to expect that Vista settings and preferences will have some basis on, and commonality with, previous Windows OSes. I know it really pissed me off for the first few weeks, when I couldn't "intuitively" find things based on where they were under XP. That said, all modern OSes are pretty usable and tweakable if you consider them to be different independent entities with their own way of doing things, and leave the expectations at home. Even in moving from one Linux distro to another (although it's better there)....

Mandatory_Field

@dallasmay2: You haven't actually installed Ubuntu, have you? The first time I saw Compiz in action, that's exactly what I said.

HeartBurnKid

@nutbastard:

"Are you saying XP has a good UI? People keep buying that. And Vista LOOKS fine but it's incredibly counterintuitive to interact with OS settings and preferences."

Yeah, I think XP has a pretty smooth UI. MS did a lot of work on what is aesthetically pleasing between 2000 and XP But that is not why people buy it of course. The only reason people buy windows is because they think they have no other choice.

What I am saying is that if Ubuntu wants to really be considered as a choice when buying a computer, they should try to make a good first impression by saying, "Hey, look how fun and pretty I am."

IMHO the "Hey you can spend hours on me and make me what ever you want me to be" is not working for them.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2: Ubuntu doesn't use KDE. Ubuntu uses Gnome. The default theme (Human) is actually rather brown. I'm not a fan of brown, so I switched to the included Crux theme, which is purple and... let's call it gunmetal, since we are splitting hairs over colors (after all, that brushed-aluminum OSX theme is rather gray-ish itself).

Of course, there are a million options if you don't find the default look, or any of the included themes, satisfactory: [www.gnome-look.org]

And no, Darwin isn't Linux-based. It's BSD-based. Still part of the *nix family.

HeartBurnKid

@nutbastard: that looks like RHEL 4.

Joseph

@nutbastard:

Maybe you missed my point. I know that there are many great things people have done with Linux. Very creative, and very cleaver things.

But my point is, you only get to make a first impression once. If your mother installed Ubuntu today, her first impression when she turns it on the first time should be to say, "Wow! That is so neat. I think I like this."

Ubuntu doesn't have that right now. That is what they should work towards if they want to be taken seriously beyond a geeky hobby.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2:
"Actually your comment about how people keep buying cell phones inspite of the UI seems like a perfect example of what I am talking about."

Are you saying XP has a good UI? People keep buying that. And Vista LOOKS fine but it's incredibly counterintuitive to interact with OS settings and preferences.

nutbastard

OSX with what looks like stacks implemented: [art.gnome.org]

nutbastard

@dallasmay2: I don't see any gray on the KDE 4 default theme?

[www.kde.org]

dwight-schrute

PuppyLinux's front end is pretty damned clean, for a <100 megabyte OS. openSuse is fairly comparable to XP's blue and green interface, although it's a *little* bit heftier, and its File Manager is more comparable to Vista's in terms of good design. Neither Slax nor Ulteo that bad. If you're going nuts over the Mac OS X look, PUD makes a reasonable approximation of it.

Ubuntu's not the best looking one, I'll admit, but there are some pretty good front-ends out there.

Apparently there are numerous groups working towards getting photoshop working well on linux. Google and Disney among them.

Just go GIMP.

gattsuru

@nutbastard:

Actually your comment about how people keep buying cell phones inspite of the UI seems like a perfect example of what I am talking about. People HATE their cell phones. People buy a new one every year if they can. Neither MS nor Palm could figure out how to actually sell them in reasonable quantities.

Apple Figured it out. The iPhone was amazing, not because it was a music playing phone, not because it had internet, not because it had video, but because it was ACTUALLY USEABLE! Apple had spent time thinking about the UI. And the iPhone has by far the highest user satisfaction.

User Interface matters tremendously.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2:
Here are some easy to install window themes for Ubuntu:
Vista: [art.gnome.org]
Graphite: [art.gnome.org]
Metativo: [art.gnome.org]

It goes on and on. Here's some implimentations of various themes:

[art.gnome.org]
OS X ?Vista mix :[art.gnome.org]
full vista: [art.gnome.org]

nutbastard

Meh, they're all pretty good (yes, including Vista), and have their respective advantages and disadvantages. Choice ftw!

Mandatory_Field

@nutbastard:

Don't get me wrong on this. I like Linux, I wish HP, Dell, and Lenovo would push linux further than the hobbies they have now. I would like to see apple support linux with a version of iTunes and Quicktime. I would much rather use Ubuntu at work than XP (and believe me I have asked our IT guy at my high school I I could do that, he said no.)

But it still looks like hell, and the average user shouldn't have to spend an hour to fix that. And the average user is not going to do so.

dallasmay2

@kokodhem: Virtualbox is like vmware, but opensource, you can boot up windows in linux and let it run "seamlessly" in the background:

[blog.slyon.de]

I use it for the adobe programs and it works flawlessly without a visible performance loss.

@dallasmay2: If someone is really that picky on how his OS is supposed to look like, he'll most likely take the time to customize it.

It all boils down to personal taste anyway. I personally keep my winXP on the default (black&white) theme because I don't like all these kiddy colours and crappy effects, as I find it easier to navigate without them.

shinchan

@dallasmay2:
You know, I really think you're overestimating how much influence a GUIs appearance has on peoples decision to use it - look at cellphones, horrible UIs everywhere, and people still buy em. Look if the layout, the functional organization of Ubuntu were as convoluted as XPs, i think you'd have a point.

nutbastard

"They don't want to customize it. If they have to call their CS major kids to change the background"

If they can't figure out how to change the background in Ubuntu, they can't do it in ANY OS. I'm not even sure people like that can wipe their own asses and dress themselves. A right click on the background gives a context menu with one of the options being, "Change Desktop Background"

nutbastard

@nutbastard:

I did notice that I posted an old Ubuntu sceenshot just a second ago,

I was just about to repost this one
[toddsingleton.net]

But my complaint still remains. It's not where near as refined as OSX or Windows. If if it doesn't look good, than regular people will assume it isn't as good underneath either. Jumping to a new OS is scary as it is with out the feeling your are downgrading in "look and feel".

dallasmay2

@kokodhem: Apparently there are numerous groups working towards getting photoshop working well on linux. Google and Disney among them. Don't give up hope!

illiniguy

@dallasmay2:
"99% of the population of the world, just wants their computers to work."

It does work. How it looks has nothing to do with how well it works. It's functional, it's just not blue by default. A quick trip to the Appearance preference allows you to select from other themes that come with it, and installing other themes is a snap.

nutbastard

and here's a small taste of the multiple desktops cube:

[lh3.google.com]

although you really need to look at video to understand how cool compiz is. just google video for compiz gutsy, there's tons of cool things you can do with it.

nutbastard

@kokodhem: Crap. I thought there was a version on wine that would run PS.

Someone posted on Lifehacker that they're running PS in VirtualBox. They didn't say how well it works though.

ParJoe

@nutbastard:

Again I have to say that there is a fundamental flaw with the "... make it so drab that it encourages you to customize it" philosophies. The flaw goes like this:

99% of the population of the world, just wants their computers to work. They don't want to customize it. If they have to call their CS major kids to change the background to something more pleasing immediately after installing the dang thing, they are going to assume that the whole system is broken.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2:
that's not current ubuntu in the first screenshot. that's 5.04 and it's pretty old now.

this is gutsy:
[www.michaeldolan.com]

nutbastard

@dallasmay2: "KDE 4 still looks boxy and gray"

Ubuntu uses Gnome...maybe you tried Kubuntu?

...oh and some people like brown.

Lizard_King

For anyone complaining about the boxy look of Linux, you should download a Ubuntu LiveCD and give it a go (no partitioning or anything, all on CD). There is no commitment, and putting it on a USB drive allows you to keep persistent changes. All of the 'I've tried it before' comments seems familiar - I tried Slackware back in '97, and hated it too. My first re-try of Linux was the crappy eee OS, my second was the LiveCD of 7.10.

I'm finding it harder and harder to say no to Linux - Ubuntu is beautiful.

Lizard_King

2008 is going to be the 'year of Linux'

Slartibartfast

Here is Ubuntu
[www.osnews.com]

Here is OSX Tiger
[www.winsupersite.com]

Here is OSX Leopard
[64-bit-computers.com]

Here is Windows XP
[www.winsupersite.com]

Here is Windows Vista
[people.chem.umass.edu]

These are the Out-Of-the-Box themes. The Ubuntu community has work to do.

dallasmay2

@DBNull:
I'd suggest you get in contact with canonical directly.

nutbastard

@dallasmay2:
"I don't know what version of XP you are referring to"

XP SP1, Vanilla, non-oem (Not a Dell or HP CD) defaults to W2K-like theme.

"On the other hand. Ubuntu's default is Brown on Brown on Brown."

I suspect they make it drab for a couple of reasons:
1. to avoid cloning the look of other OS's
2. to be easy on resources by default
3. to make it so drab that it encourages you to customize it, make it your own - after all that's a big part of what linux is about - there's NOTHING you cannot potentially alter in any way/shape/form

You can duplicate the complete look and feel of OS X with some effort:

[www.howtoforge.com]

and there's other that make it look and work just like XP. Or a BeBox. and if you don't like any of those theres tons of user created themes that install with absolutely no pain.

nutbastard

Anyone know where I can get a VHD of Ubuntu Mobile for demo purposes on a desktop?

DBNull

@kokodhem:
ok i didn't see that or i wouldn't have evn mentioned Gimp - i know how tired that argument is.

nutbastard

@nutbastard:

I don't know what version of XP you are referring to, but any fresh install I've ever done with it has always had the Green Start Button as the default theme.

Yes you can reset windows to look ugly and gray, but that certainly hasn't been the default since 2000.

On the other hand. Ubuntu's default is Brown on Brown on Brown. I know what they are going for here, the whole Human theme, but it is just a bad idea. Work on aesthetics. People expect even the cheapest crap from wal-mart to at least look good from a distance.

dallasmay2

@kokodhem:
while true, PS doesn't run under WINE, and although it's getting better, Gimp still doesn't even come close to PS, and with PS learning curve taking a lot of invested time and effort, i can understand why PS is a major hangup.

on the other hand, blame Adobe - the mac version would require (relatively) little modification as it's already running under what is basically a *nix on x86 hardware.

nutbastard

@kokodhem: Not be be argumentative but I'm fairly certain Photoshop runs under wine now.

[osdir.com]

madcoweater

one of the great features to, is the live cd. Anybody here every tried using the repair console on windows. Talk about antiquated. I dual boot as well. Ubuntu seems to be the new red hat, so we shall see.

jkr

@nutbastard: Thanks dude.

I plan on trying it out when I have another place to move/back up my important files. I just can't risk losing them if I mess up the install.

I don't know how people could have anything against Linux. It's one thing if you can't use it as your regular os. Otherwise, HELLO...it's completely FREE and regularly updated! Not to mention the numerous other reasons to try it.

ParJoe

Oh, and please don't tell me to learn to use Gimp... after a decade of mastering Photoshop, there's just no comparison at all...

kokodhem

ubuntu is extremely useful... what isn't useful is that you can't get some absolutely required software (like Photoshop) to run under Wine... I would be extremely overjoyed if there was just a simple way to boot into my current Windows install within a window, the way that Wubi is supposed to boot into Linux from within Windows. That way I could just run it when I needed something like Photoshop, and you still need an actual install of Windows.

Anybody have any experience with Windows/Linux Parallels?

kokodhem

"KDE 4 still looks boxy and gray."

so does a fresh XP install until you *gasp* change the theme.

nutbastard

@dallasmay2:
darwin is the front end for unix, and they're functionally indistinguishable.

nutbastard

Well, I'll have to disagree with everyone who disagreed with me. KDE 4 still looks boxy and gray. There is just no flow with the colors. And if you really expect the typical user to spend an Hour or more fixing your systems aesthetic problems, you really need to adjust your philosophies.

For Linux to go anywhere it HAS TOO LOOK GOOD OUT OF THE BOX! First install. If it doesn't, if a user has to spend an hour just to make it look decent, that user is going to assume that the rest of it is crap too.

I have used linux in the last decade. I installed Ubuntu 6 on an old Dell a year ago, and it cemented my belief that Apple is the only OS maker that gives a passing thought to what a typical user wants and needs.

(By the way, Darwin is not Linux, sure Apple has stolen some of it's features, but that doesn't make it Linux.)

dallasmay2

"See the problem with Linux is they can't get together and market their product."
because under the GNU they can't sell or patent the code, there's no reason for the creators to pay for ad space and push it on people - if you build it, they will come.

nutbastard

Can't we all just get along? :) I dual-boot XP and Ubunutu. Compiz-fusion leaves my desktop looking s-l-i-c-k. I have a sad fascination with the rubbery windows effects. Even using my graphic tablet for my main pointing device, I can use Ubuntu for everything I do with Windows, including watching movies, downloading torrents, scanning negatives from the darkroom, and printing to my canon photo printer.
I recently built a computer for a neighbor and I dropped Ubuntu on it... no problems learning the ropes. I also get less calls for help :)

comp_wiz101

@dallasmay2: They fixed that... it's called OS X. It's Darwin Linux with a cover. Apple is smart because instead of re-inventing the wheel like Microsoft, they just steal regular calls in Linux and branded them as amazing features.
Spotlight - Linux commands "updatedb" and "slocate"
Network Utility - simple network commands like "netstat", "ping", "finger"
Spaces - Well Linux has had 4 desktop screens since 2000 when I started using it.

See the problem with Linux is they can't get together and market their product. OS X seems to be the only distro thats getting some traction. It's still Linux for nerds that like to do "ps -ax" then "kill -9 PID", but it's also windows for the business guy who wants to double-click on the "Activity Monitor", click on a process and "Quit Process"

Joseph

Ubuntu is interesting, but I'm voting for Hillary.

wtgeinsteen

@merm:
i'm...trying...so...hard...to hold....back!

aren't all OS posts predetermined by unwritten law to be flamewars by default?

nutbastard

Now, now guys, play nice with the ignorant windows users. Seriously though, lets not turn this great little piece of Linux attention into another idiotic OS flamewar.

merm

@ParJoe:
as of 7.10, yes compiz comes preinstalled, although metacity is the default compositing engine

nutbastard

@nutbastard: Man! It's that compiz stuff that's the main reason I wanna try Ubuntu! (I just love the eye candy!) The stability and ease of use and all that too, haha.

Btw, does that Compiz stuff come WITH Ubuntu?

ParJoe

@dallasmay2: Look into KDE 4. I use it with Kubuntu on my tower at home and it looks amazing.

dwight-schrute

"if given a choice, people will pay for Windows rather than get Linux for free."

Most people don't mess with things as low level as an OS - the computer comes with Windows, works as well as they've been conditioned to believe it can, so they leave it be.

The fact is most people don't know how decent the current linux distros are, or even that they exist, and 'linux' carries a stigma of being only for programmers and virgins. People ALWAYS fear change.

nutbastard

@madcoweater:
and with no tweaking it's somewhere between windows and OSX, although things like UIs are hard to quantify comparatively.

nutbastard

@dallasmay2: I'm guessing that you havn't used linux since 1995? After about an hour of tweaking the UI on Ubuntu is vastly superior to OSX or Windows.

madcoweater

@multimoog:
"if Linux was useful."
what is it that windows/osx does that linux doesn't that makes it useless?

@dallasmay2:
go look at some youtube videos of compiz-fusion - it's far from ugly and while the default theme is rather drab (i like it personally) it's absolutely 100% customizable.

nutbastard

I'm gonna wait for the official release - hopefully it fixes my desktop compositing compiz-fusion eyecandy issues (although i think metacity is to blame - stupid disappearing titlebars when i turn on the cube...) which are the only issues i have, and being completely unnecessary, it doesn't bother me much, but damn, the cube/wobbly windows is cool!

nutbastard

nope, still ugly as hell. Seriously, why can't a linux distro not look like something from 1995? I guess aesthetics is one of those nice features you have to actually pay for.

File this comment under, "I could make my own furniture for less than that."

dallasmay2

Linux news would be more appreciated if it was useful. That is to say, if Linux was useful. I'm sure the people who like it are perfectly happy, but there's reasons critics say it's not ready for the general public and why, if given a choice, people will pay for Windows rather than get Linux for free. And if people choose Windows over Linux, I can't even imagine how much worse than OS X it is.

multimoog

What is new in this distro? Is there anything actually interesting?

dallasmay2

Nutbastard runs Ubuntu? I had no idea.

Lizard_King

@dallasmay2: You do realize that IBM and Novell both push their own flavor of Linux, not Ubuntu, right? And they push them as a corporate OS, not a consumer OS?

And I'm not really sure what HP uses.

HeartBurnKid

@oo0cyst0oo: Yeah, you know, I can agree that America might not be "the greatest nation on the planet", but I've been to Mexico, and I'd definitely rather be in America. Mexico's a nice place to visit, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.

HeartBurnKid

you just you might like ubuntu if you try it. it's pretty effin fantastic.

oo0cyst0oo

@nutbastard: you are my hero.

i've done the same thing. it is people that are afraid of change. they have blind preferences. shit like "america is the greatest nation on this planet." from their trailer in south dakota that they've never left.

sure, xp is great compared to 95 or vista (and only MAYBE Vista. it has it's own deals that are good, but so does america.)

Try moving to Denmark, hell try moving to Mexico! It's scary.

oo0cyst0oo

@dallasmay2: Actually, Novell DOES market the snot out of SuSE -- just not to consumers, but to corporations (i.e. where the money is). For a while there, I thought that SuSE had turned into AOL....

Mandatory_Field

@dallasmay2: "Never" is a strong word. Ubuntu is there; the only thing lacking is OEM support.

HeartBurnKid

@dwight-schrute:
yeah i did the "use it for 2 days" thing to my russian buddy, and to make sure he did, i deleted IE, knowing he isn't savvy enough to know how to get it back.

nutbastard

@nutbastard: I have a similar story about my old roommate and firefox. He thought nothing could work like IE so I told him to use firefox for 2 days and if he didn't like it I would shut up about it. He has only opened IE for updating XP sense then.

I have a roommate now that needed a computer, his has some fatal error, so I let him use my tower with Kubuntu on it. After the second day he wanted me to 'fix' his by putting Kubuntu on it.

dwight-schrute

@dallasmay2:
"So are we in agreements that Linux will never amount to anything on the desktop"
what in the name of fuck gave you THAT idea?

nutbastard

"Until Best Buy stocks Ubuntu PC's right next to the Windows PC's most people won't even think to try it out."

I would put it this way:
"Until those of us who do know about Ubuntu make a significant effort to improve the lives of those around us by showing it around, explaing it and demonstrating it, and impressing them with it personally, Best Buy will not stock Ubuntu PC's right next to the Windows PC's."

Which is what I'm doing. A few months ago i had to explain to my buddy why he should be running firefox and not IE. He wasn't interested, had never heard of it. So i showed it to him. Now that's all he runs. Fast forward a few months, swap "firefox" for "ubuntu" and "IE" for "Windows" and guess who's getting Ubuntu installed this weekend, and is actually excited about it?

nutbastard

So are we in agreements that Linux will never amount to anything on the desktop.

No funding.
No Advertising.
No Shelf Space.
Few Users.
Scary platform change.
Poor First Impressions.

Great. It looks like a two man race for the next decade.

It's Apple or Microsoft isn't it.

dallasmay2

@HeartBurnKid:
Under "Why Linux" on system76, they say:

"No more blue screens of death or check disk screens when you boot up."

Mine actually does do a disk check every 20 boots - I wonder why mine is like that?

nutbastard

@HeartBurnKid:

"Because, when you give your software away for free, that doesn't leave you with much of a marketing budget"

True, but they do have a lot of deep pocketed financiers. IBM, Novel, HP, Dell. These guys are not just donating a little for a Tax write off. Any one of them should be marketing the heck out of it.

dallasmay2

@dallasmay2:
"On a different topic, why hasn't Linux, Ubuntu or otherwise, done any advertising?"
because advertising costs money and they don't stand to make any of it back. It would have to be a total charity operation, and I think they consider creating a complete, free OS with no compensation for doing so charitable enough.

@dallasmay2:
Dell stands to make more money through their partnership with MS, so of course they want to sell you Windows - It's JUST AS DIFFICULT to get dell to sell you a clean, OS-free computer as it is to get an Ubuntu one.

nutbastard

@HeartBurnKid:

Yeah, I don't think www.system76.com counts as an easy to find Ubuntu catalog. I've never heard of it.

Look, here is the problem. Until Best Buy stocks Ubuntu PC's right next to the Windows PC's most people won't even think to try it out. And they sure are not going to download it and INSTALL IT! Do you know how scary that it for a person who has family photo's on their PC?

dallasmay2

@jackal888:
nice : )

nutbastard

@JesusDeSaad: Unfortunately, there aren't many AAA game titles that run native in Linux, so if that's what you're looking for, unless you really like the Quake and Unreal serieses, or you're willing to tinker around a little bit (not much) with Wine, you might be better off sticking with Windows for now.

And as for Adobe's products... I understand most of them run well under Wine, but again, there's tinkering involved.

Still, you might try a dual boot. By my watch, you've got a little over a year before MS pulls the plug on mainstream support for XP, so it never hurts to look into your options.

HeartBurnKid

@strider_mt2k:
wait for Hardy to come out in a few weeks, in the meantime go ahead and do XP, you can always do a dual boot later and slowly get used to the ubuntu environment, (or not) but TRUST me on this: setting up a solid XP install and following through with all the BS that ensues is a far more complicated and miserable experience than the same process with Ubuntu. At least with Ubuntu one has access to a dedicated community of people who are there to help get your computer running the way you want it. MS "knowledge" database is borderline double-speak.

nutbastard

@JesusDeSaad:
if that's ALL you're doing, windows should be fine for you.

However, it's not so much a matter of "Does Linux support games" as it is "Do game makers support Linux". And the answer to that is no. Linux is NOT for EVERYONE, there is no "perfect" operating system, but it IS a viable, cost free alternative for those of us who don't use things like photoshop and who use consoles for games, if at all.

But for day to day, common tasks, you know, the things the other 99% of people do that you have no interest in, Linux is superior to windows and AT LEAST matches OS X. I use all three all the time,

Honestly if you're one of those people who doesn't find Windows to be painful, I'm inclined to think that has more to do with desensitization than it has to do with Windows actually being a decent OS.

nutbastard

I am waiting for Solid Seagull build before I switch.

jackal888

Hmmm.

I might be coming into an older (operational) HP machine soon free of charge.
It's AMD's 2.6Ghz P4 Hyperthreading equivalent with about 2GB of RAM and an nvidia 6o-something hundred video card. (don't know if it's AGP or PCIe yet)
Nothing major, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have an OS disk with it.

At this point I can either pay for an OS or sit through the re-re-re...re(?)-activation process with MS over my ages old copy of WinXP Pro I bought and have taken from one single machine at a time to the next as they have expired or try Ubuntu for reals as opposed to simply screwing around with it.

To be honest, I'm inclined to try activating my XP one more time, but before I do I'm going to give Ubuntu an honest go at setting up the machine to do the basic stuff I'm looking for a secondary machine to do, which isn't much really.

I say that it should be given a chance at the very least.

strider_mt2k

I only use my pc for two things:
a) games
b) Adobe products.

a)Does Ubuntu or another linux os support video games? I mean really support them, in an -it's-as-if-they're-running-on-xp-or-vista- kind of way? Because I want to play new video games. All the time. Like Bioshock and Crysis and CoD and whatnot, not just Pac-Man and Zuma.

b)Adobe products? A decade of Photoshop here as well. It's not about comfort, it's about level of product. Gimp may look as good as Photoshop, but after you have mastered both, you'll know Photoshop > Gimp.
And I haven't even referred to Premiere, Illustrator and the rest of Adobe's products.

Until both a) and b) are met, make mine XP SP2
(or hopefully SP3, although I'm not holding my breath)

JesusDeSaad

@HeartBurnKid:
i JUST went through that whole thing, a straight XP install with a vanilla, non branded disc, just Windows XP.

Reboots out the yinyang. USB ports STILL NOT WORKING.

So we got an official Dell CD and tried again, guess what? USB ports STILL NOT WORKING

Device manager - "Usb Ports are working FINE" it says.

total bullshit.

Anyone who's on the fence about switching to linux, read this -

[linux.oneandoneis2.org]

this explains why you shouldn't believe people who say linux "isn't ready"

nutbastard

@nutbastard: I will totally agree with you there. People always bitch how "Linux doesn't support my videocard right out of the box! And the install's too complicated!", so I can't imagine how they'd feel if they saw what Windows did during that time -- from seeing blue screens full of text at the beginning, to the install process taking about 3 hours, to being confronted with a 640x480 256-color screen on first boot, to another 2-3 hours downloading all the updates that have come out since Service Pack 2... and that's assuming you have a disc that already includes SP2 (or you're enough of a techie to slipstream). If not, prepare for download, reboot, download, reboot, download, reboot...

And don't get me started on IDE RAID. "Bob" help you if you're using IDE RAID.

HeartBurnKid

@nutbastard: Heh. Recently I decided to re-install the included Vista on my HP Pavillon laptop with the recovery DVDs; boy, was that ever so painful!

Before I bought my Eee, that HP was my main computer. Not setup as a gaming machine, but it was actually the most powerful computer in the house. Ran Ubuntu very well.

After a few months of not even booting it because the Eee stole its purpose, I decided the only way I'd get some use out of it would be as a "gaming" computer (not much of one, but I mostly play games that are a few years old), so I grudgingly decided to reinstall Vista. Sure, I could have gone back to XP, but I PAID for that Vista. And I wanted to look objectively at how a new computer with Vista has to be installed.

Well, it was a bunch of $?"/?"/$?"/

Took an hour reinstalling it with the recovery CD. Then, I had all that HP bloatware stuff installed all over the place; some of it half-replacing the ones for Vista (do I REALLY need a HP updater AND Windows Update?). And no, people, don't argue it's only HP; the other manufacturers do that shit too. Never managed to get the OSD working. The wireless wouldn't be recognized on the first boot. Took me a few weeks until I was done with the patches on reboot. And for some reason, Windows Update won't allow me to get SP1.

That, and half my games won't even run; those that do have shitty framerates. I bought that computer last August; I would have AT LEAST expected it to run Silent Hunter 3 and 4 without random crashes to desktop, and with playable framerates, but noooo. Civilisation 4 and Galactic Civilisation 2 also have terrible framerates, although for that kind of game I guess it's not too important.

Funny how Ubuntu with Wine on the same machine gave me better framerates on the games it did run than Vista did. WINE is better at running Windows games than Vista is.

Guizzy

i've worked with all operating systems. windows from 3.11 all the way to vista. mac os X. mandrake linux. ubuntu linux. (there's one more in there that i'm forgetting.) here's my take.

windows does what "most" people need. it plays tunes. it is fairly predictable (assuming no random shutdowns or BSOD failures). it's familiar. and almost all software is made for windows.

i tried linux with open office. i used it for a while. my main beef was my audio library and the mp3 players in linux were horribly slow and unintuitive. maybe that's all changed now.

mac os X was a treat. (was the operable word there since my macbook died.) i loved the interface, the stability. and i hated the single click mouse. too many years right-clicking.

the result is that now i'm running three machines. one has windows vista that i installed to "check out the badness" and see what the fuss was all about. i've left it like this for a few reasons. my workstation has windows XP installed for software compatibility reasons. ArcGIS and AutoCAD are my tools of the trade and i need windows XP to perform flawlessly. my (employer-purchased) hp laptop is running windows XP pro as well. i don't really have the option to switch that since it's not rightly mine.

my preference would be a mac but fucking apple charges WAY too much for their hardware to get me to switch over. and on my next opportunity, i'm going to try ubuntu again. i want to see if the audio player has been updated and will work with a library over the network without causing so much of a damn hassle.

in the end, no matter how much argument goes on, each person has the tools they use for work and/or play. each OS has its strengths. each has its weaknesses.

i guess i'm done.

D.LYTE

ok, linux does do commercials

+ Watch video

+ Watch video

+ Watch video

jkr

@D.LYTE:
I cant really answer on the music library over a network - being something i've never done (i've just never had the motive/means to do the whole 'media center' thing) i really don't know if this is something ubuntu is going to do for you painlessly. I don't do a lot of networking. I really dont harbor much data at all, i think if i added it all up i've got maybe 40-50 gigs of stuff.

i know, ridiculous, right?

nutbastard

@HeartBurnKid: America, fuck yeah!

I've never seen Ubuntu in action, the Compiz-fusion videos are pretty sweet! I just got a crapped out Dell laptop for free, need to fix it. I seriously think I will...

a) install Ubuntu
b) have fun learning something new

and

c) become an ex-pat and move to Mexico :P

iFlingPoo

@nutbastard: Ahh....thanks for the heads up. I was just planning on installing it on an extra drive that hasn't had any windows installs on it and then dual boot until I get used to Ubuntu.

All I know about fat32 and ntfs is that they're different filing systems and that windows uses ntfs.

ParJoe

lol, third in a row. Now linux has completly owned windows when it comes to filesystem. YOU NEVER NEED TO DEFRAGMENT. granted each file system has advantages and disadvantages, but i think ext3 is better.

jkr

hmm, some spelling errors, hope that doesn't take away from argument.

jkr

@nutbastard: I will say this about ubuntu, or linux in general, it has a huge flaw in the desktop department. Nautilus is a big steaming pile of crap. I'll tell you why nautilus is a big steaming pile of crap. You can't search the file system. you go to the file system, looking for a lost file, not sure where it is, so you want to search the whole HD, guess what, not going to happen. I don't care is nautilus can come up w/ space travel, or cure disease, or what ever, if it can't search, it's a big steaming pile of crap. What boggles the mind is that not a single programmer has thought, "wow, search is kind of broken on this thing". I know they claim that this has been fixed, but it hasn't i'm using 2.20, which comes with Ubuntu. Another irritant is that if you are searching another partition, you can only search the whole partition, not the current folder you are in, unless perhaps you put the path in the search also. And the search results are so oftern incomplete. What ever the argument about updating your file server, or what ever, microsoft has thoughly tromped linux (Ubuntu) in this department.

jkr

href="#c4820186">JesusDeSaad: I have to sadly say that I agree, I'm in the same boat. My server runs ubuntu, best linux distro ever. But...Photoshop, dreamweaver, flash, gotta have them, what are you going to do?

I want to run ubuntu exclusively, I do, and I've tried, and I can't. If only Adobe would release for linux, I think world peace would soon follow.

Navin R Johnson

I bought a new PC with Vista and partitioned it to setup Ubuntu and I am glad I did. While I like vista lot, Ubuntu overall is a very smooth OS. I think it is fairly easy to use even for novices.
The main issue though is trying to install some programs that you find on the internet, its not as easy as unzipping or downloading that .exe file as it is in Windows. You often have other packages to install or have to use the terminal and that is where it goes beyond novice use. Fix this and Linux can be for anyone. However for now this stumbling block will deter many from using it for long.

GhoS

@nutbastard:
Have you checked out Sabayon linux? I'm loving the stability and the simple package managmenet. Great distro with the added benefit of booting to any window manager. Check out Fluxbox, it's great for those days when you're feeling minimalist.

kaylix

@jkr: Have you tried KDE? Konqueror might be more to your liking than Nautilus.

HeartBurnKid

@GhoS: Did you check the repositories for what you were trying to install? Go to Applications | Add/Remove, and see if you can find it there. That should take care of all the dependency issues for you.

HeartBurnKid

@HeartBurnKid: no I haven't, but i do see it in the repos, perhaps I should give it a try. I was using linux mint for a while, but I've switched over to stock ubuntu. I've more or less got my system set up, so I'll backup my current install. Norton Ghost 10 for windows is close to being perfect, except that you have to boot off the cd for a restore. the closest one that I've seen is probably clonezilla, but I have limited experience with backup software on linux. I'll do a backup before trying konqueror. Thanks

jkr

@Navin R Johnson:
Adobe will work with Linux, I have Dreamweaver 8, Flash 8 and Photoshop cs2 all working just fine. They are very easy to install with a program called wine-doors (google it). You need to have wine installed and then install wine-doors, from there it's as simple as starting wine-doors and choosing the programs you want to install and then clicking the install button. The Adobe programs will need to have a valid license after the 30 day trial as always. I use Photoshop everyday and have yet to have a problem.

BUDsMan

+35 posts by ONE guy.

Wow.

notnb

@notnb:
douche.
@GhoS:
The main issue though is trying to install some programs that you find on the internet,

which is completely unnecessary. you have a package manager, use it! CLI installs are for people who know what they're doing, and are rarely required. hunting for apps on the tubes like that is stale, use the repos/synaptic/add-remove, aptitude is a last ditch effort IMO

nutbastard

@nutbastard: haha, GhoS has a windows mentality when it comes to software. I hunt the interent for programs, cause of the more complete descriptions, user comments, and screen shots. Then install through the repos. The problem here, why there is a debate, is because of cultural differences. Windows culture vs linux culture. I think everybody agrees that linux in its inception is incredible, but many just don't belive that it can deliver, is user friendly, or perhaps even comes w/o strings. Only a linux user can understand that it is a true success on all accounts. In fact, when a computer company sides with linux, it can offer better hardware support faster because the source is available.

jkr

The only significant issues with Linux stem from Linux not being more popular.

Guizzy

@kokodhem: Try VirtualBox. You can run Linux in Windows and vice-versa (and there's a new beta version that runs on OS X. There's even a seamless mode, like in Parallels, so that you don't need to deal with an OS inside a window if you want.

yehoni

yes, the current search feature does suck, that's something we've all been pining for...

nutbastard

Hey nutbastard im thinking about trying out ub on a spare PC and didnt know if this is something i should think about or think about another version and is there anywhere i should go to read up on ub so i have an idea of what im doing

Iffrat

@nutbastard: I was thinking about trying Ubuntu out on my older PC that i'm not using right now but i am the n00bz at the Ubuntu should I think about this or another ver. and anything i should read up on?

Iffrat