@nutbastard: You may think that following stupid laws is, well, stupid, but I know that _I_ won't be flicking boogers into the wind in Alabama, or putting salt on a railroad track (punishable by death), or marrying close relatives. Oh wait, that last one's legal....

Mandatory_Field

@Sihanouk-s-Poodle: Exactly. I'm unconcerned with cameras out in public, where anyone can see what I'm doing anyway. Start trying to put them in my home, then you're invading my privacy.

Gee, maybe that's why it's called "public" instead of "private".

chaoslink

@nutbastard:

I'm sorry Nutbastard, you seem really unhappy with your life. Did the government force you at gunpoint to live on top of a mountain 35 miles away from your work?

It sounds like you really need a tinfoil hat.

Sihanouk-s-Poodle

@jcraig:

Red light cameras don't cause accidents. Yellow lights are timed to the posted speed limit, so if people don't speed, then they have plenty of time to coast through the yellow or come to reasonable controlled stop.

There are massive amounts of statistical data available that link excessive speed to mortality of drivers, passengers and pedestrians. Speed limits are not set (at least in the U.S.) by nagging schoolmarms, but by engineers. Enforcing laws to prevent needless death and destruction of property is not what Orwell was worried about.

Sihanouk-s-Poodle

it's nachoboys typical disregard for reality that got prohibition going way back when. "Alcohol is bad for you - let's outlaw it, and put people in jail! We have to put them in jail, to protect them from ruining their lives with alcohol!

nutbastard

@NachoBoy:
sure, i'll take the train, from the mountains, where theres not even another house for miles. or yeah, the bus station they put in on our road for the 12 people who live along it. it's a special bus, that has 4 wheel drive and can negotiate 12%, 20 foot radius uphill hairpin turns on a one lane road. or right, i'll ride my fucking bike, 35 miles to work. great plan. actually, you probably ARE a polititian, aren't you?

nutbastard

@nutbastard: At least in California, getting a proposal to repeal a law is the same as any other ballot measure. It takes roughly 400,000 signatures, but like I said... that's doable if it's really an unjust law, it just requires significant effort.

Sure, I've never done so myself, but I've also never felt strongly enough about a law that I would do that much work to get it repealed.

chaoslink

because you are FORCED to drive on public motorways. Don't like following the rules? Don't drive. Ride a bike, take the train, spank your monkey.

NachoBoy

outrageously typical is what i meant : )

nutbastard

law don' go 'round here lawdog.

redkamel

@chaoslink:
and an example being extreme doesn't make it a rare exception; im not suggesting thousands of stolen cars are being ticketed, im saying that ticketing a stolen car is a typically outrageous perpetration by our rape-and-pillage government.

nutbastard

and BTW, i dont endorse the outright destruction of these cameras. it's a stupid tactic, i agree, if the goal is to stop the whole orwellian situation, but thats not what they are doing. they are doing this so that other people in other parts of the world will wake up to what the UK is rapidly becoming.

nutbastard

@chaoslink:
but it's not "blindly breaking" a law if im objecting concienciously to specific laws. And, oh yeah - tell me, ONE, just ONE law that you've ever had a hand in repealing. It doesn't happen. In fact, I've never gotten the chance to vote on laws one way or the other. which magical polling place do you go to in order to repeal unjust laws?

nutbastard

@imajoebob:
well, and they use the traffic camera evidence to bully you around, make you miss work so you can show up in court, and basically make your life miserable. these cameras give them an avenue to do this, no pun intended.

nutbastard

Well, right or wrong, these guys are going to get slapped down in a big way by the British authorities. I have no doubt they are planning agressive counter measures as we speak to deal with these idiots. I give it a month before they are all in the slammer.

I'm not arguing that it's okay for Britan to have all this survellance, just that techno-terrorism is going to get these guys absolutely nowhere, except in prison.

redman042

@nutbastard: Yes, because the best way to judge a situation is by the rare exception.

The point is not to follow laws without question: the point is to follow the laws (even those you don't agree with) while attempting to affect change.

If no one agrees with a law, it should be a simple matter to get a proposal on the ballot, at least in the US (I'm not as familiar with particulars of other countries). But then again, that kind of work is boring and requires real effort, whereas wanton destruction not only satisfies the aggressive revenge fantasy, it's also easy!

Blindly breaking the law is just as idiotic as blindly following it.

chaoslink

I've read that the average Briton has their image taken almost 500 times a week, so you can imagine what the number is for Londoners. One day I decided to count the number of cameras I encountered every day; from the halls to the elevator, the entry hall to the Costcutter, the traffic cams and buses, et al. I walked all of 2 blocks and gave up, when the count passed 30! There's simply no way to avoid it.

On the other hand, I dislike traffic cams, and where I now live in the States (CT), they're useless, since moving violations are charged to the driver, not the vehicle. It's a better way to keep drivers accountable for their actions. Unless you're caught in the act by a cop, you're safe. They can, however, be used in civil cases to assign responsibility for an accident, and police can use the images to investigate crimes - not moving violations. Just like the cameras in the bank you want to rob.

I'm a little surprised the UK hasn't tried to use RFID chips - which many manufacturers install to track manufacturing progress, along with the cameras. It eliminates any unreadable or altered tags. Though it does seem appropriate for the home of George Orwell.

imajoebob

@chaoslink:
or, i dont know, maybe we could put the emphasis on SERVING THE PUBLIC and not ticketing non-dangerous technical-rule-breakers in order to pull revenue. Or have you forgotton about this:
[valleywag.com]
already?
(san francisco meter maids ticket stolen car 29 times, owner uses tickets sent to her to find her god damn car, on her own?)

nutbastard

this "the law is the law" mentality frightens me to no end. laws have no more integrity than the people who make them. chew on THAT, all you people who complain abotu polititians but want their retarded laws followed to the letter.

nutbastard

@RetepNamenots:
because laws are just words on paper - their existence isn't inherantly coupled with any sort of validity.

nutbastard

Great. Add destruction of public property to speeding charge.

Here's a crazy thought: to avoid getting a ticket you could, oh, I don't know, not break traffic laws?

chaoslink

@MadColombian:
Um, it doesn't *stop* anyone from running red lights. making laws never stopped anyone from doing anything. stop trying to legislate "safety", it doesn't work and it perpetuates authoritarian tactics against many harmless citizens.

nutbastard

Take back the streets UKers. Your country is turning into big brother 101. See George Orwells 1984 for reference.

Sixdust

If the cameras were about driver safety, I'd be more comfortable with them. But (here in the States at least) they are only get revenue generation; and actually makes the roads less safe. Boo!

Brock

@krztov: Eh? I'm not sure what you're saying there. But the way they work is that they radar you, and if it thinks you're going too fast then it takes two photographs in quick succession (like half a second), showing your car over white markings in the road - which are clearly labelled. The distance you've travelled in this set time works out how fast you were going. The radar reading might be inaccurate, but the pictures aren't.

I don't see what's inaccurate about them.

Onouris

Um, wouldn't it take a little less effort to just ... say ... drive the speed limit and not run red lights?

I wonder how opt MAD would be to killing a traffic officer that is always waiting in the same spot to catch people everyday?

OriginalGabriel

@MadColombian: The problem is that stoplight cameras result in more wrecks than before they were installed. Everybody is afraid to get a ticket so people slam on the brakes and *boom*, wreck.

jcraig

@Retepnamenots
Yes! Blindly follow laws! Don't question a thing! BE A GOOD CITIZEN! **Twitch**Twitch**

Ounce

We have speed cameras and red light cameras all over the place in New Zealand, and I've never once thought of them as a privacy issue. It's not like some pervert is watching on the other side of the camera going "ooooh BF8201 is turning onto that street... interesting!" :/

TailsNZ

I think this would be great if they implemented this in the US.

BrimstoneX

The government must make millions each year from speed camera fines, and regardless of whether or not they do prevent accidents, would you want us to have higher taxes instead?

Why shouldn't people be fined for what they're doing - technically breaking the law!

RetepNamenots

theres actually a possibility of inaccuracy in them, from what i understand from a relative in UK, they use the cameras to determine an average speed, clocks you at one place, then again at the next, if you get to the next one too fast, theres an issue :)

krztov

@GeekGoth: Learn to drive. Motorists like you are the reason why I was hospitalized for a dislocated shoulder and shattered elbow.

Idiot's running red lights at 40 MPH or more is not fun.

BrimstoneX

as someone who has gotten 3 tickets this year from those cursed camera's may i say, GOOD JOB!!

GeekGoth

@jetexas: Which in turn means more angry motorists which in turn means more flaming cameras which in turn *head explodes*

m4ximusprim3

More tax dollars needed to buy more cameras which in turns raises the cost of the tickets they issue.

jetexas

chicago has started to role out something of the same for a while now, except only for running traffic lights.

and i think its a great idea, it stops idiots who run lights, and thus reduces the number of possible accidents.

on top of it all... makes a lot more money for the city.

i dont know why these MAD people are trying to destroy these cameras if they do way more good than bad.

MadColombian

On the one hand, as Minister Ladyman mentioned on Top Gear a while back, all of the cameras are well marked before the camera, the road speeds are posted nearby as well, and you can argue your ticket in court. Its not like they're completely unfair.

On the other hand, it is getting rather attrocious how common these things are, and its hard to argue they actually do anything beyond generate money for the Ministry of Transportation and cause a lot innocent people to lose their licenses.

blitzkrieg999

The first rule of MAD is you will not talk about MAD.

The second rule of MAD is YOU WILL NOT TALK ABOUT MAD!

Gann

Motorists or terrorists?

musen

@GeekGoth: I think he was assuming you broke the law. That is, you were going 11 MPH above the speed limit. This isn't copyright law, it's a safety issue. By making your own value judgements ("business district") you open the door for anyone to do the same.

"It was well out of school hours, who would be using the pedestrian crossing anyway?"

I'm with most people who think these aren't actually a privacy issue.

I'm all for civil disobedience... but this course of action suggests we should disobey traffic signals, pedestrian crossing, right of way laws? That is the logical route that MAD would have to take once their camera destruction is complete.

And, yes, I have been pinged by stationary cameras several times for speeding. Easy solution: don't speed.

tokiwartooth

@Gann: rule 3: no shoes

AznSmith

@GeekGoth: So, since you just endangered people instead of actually causing harm, that's ok? So if i stand outside shooting a pistol at random spots and manage to miss everyone I shouldn't get arrested?

You were speeding. You admit it. You got caught. False readings only apply if you *weren't* speeding and got flagged.

greyer

People did the same thing when parking meters were introduced. Went around with axes, chopping them down. People like getting riled up about shit.

I have a problem with most public surveillance systems, but the ones on streets are a damned good idea. You don't have a right to speed, no one is as good a driver as they think, and speeding just a little greatly increases the harm done to everyone involved in accidents. And accidents will always happen.

I smell some pseudo-libertarian bent under all the bitching. A libertarian wouldn't speed; it's a matter of personal responsibility. And, being rational, a libertarian would look to experts to decide what a safe speed is. Those would be the trained engineers hired to figure out the speed limits.

greyer

@BrimstoneX: Uh I was going 46 in a 35 mph in a business district! i did not hit anyone or even come close hell i was going with traffic, those cameras have been proven to make false readings and many people have won fighting them, so next time you assume somthing you tard don't. Idiot

GeekGoth

It's about time. We need to do the same in the USA as big brother is getting too big!

nosauten

Can somebody coined the acronyms for MADDER, I think that is what the group will be called in USA.

Jakariwo

@tokiwartooth: I'm not one to rock the boat, but til the technology is improved i think these cameras should be either taken down, or only programmed for red light violators, which is more dangerous in my opinion then driving a few miles over the limit. Here in Vegas i see it all the time people trying to beat the red lights or red arrows, and always wondering how there are not more accidents. I also would like to point out that the Camera that got me both times was not a stationary camera. its on eof those mobile camera units that they have in some oversized Van. These cmaeras are not even close to reliable, as they are switched around town and there for have to be adjusted for the changing speed limits. If i had been caught on a stationary camera that does not move every few hours and has to be recalibrated everytime i would not be so damn pissed.

GeekGoth

@greyer: UH AGAIN going with traffic AS IN going with the flow of traffic, AS IN if i went slower i'd be causing more harm. Also it was 11 miles over the limit not 25 not 50 11 miles over the limit...if you consider that endangering others, especially when oyu consider i was in a business area, not residental not school zone and i was going with the flow of traffic. then again your an idiot, you with those few special people who think that following the rules to a T is better then stretching them a tad....again i reiterate IF I HAD GONE THE SPEED LIMIT I WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPEEDING THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, PEOPLE WOULD HAVE HAD TO SWERVE TO GET ARUND ME OR WOULD HAVE TO SLOW DOWN SUDDENLY OR HIT ME...SO HOW IS THAT ENDANGERING ANYONE?? THESE CAMERAS DO NOT CARE IF YOUR GOING THE SAME SPEED AS EVERYONE ELSE, THEY JUST TAKE A PICTURE WHEN YOU EXCEED THEIR PRE DETERMINED DEFINITON OF SPEEDING. I'M SURE LOTS FO FOLKS GOT TICKETS THAT DAY

GeekGoth

Speeding per se is never the problem. It's just that they can't catch the a-holes weaving through traffic unless they use helicopters (or uavs). But red-light running should get your car seized and your license revoked, just like DUI.

NeoPoliticus

I hope this MAD organization starts here in Scottsdale arizona where you can find cameras not only in intersections but freeways as well. I think united states is turning to the big brother more and more which sucks!

amped602

Nice... I hope MAD gets here where I live too.

I mean, I'm all for traffic control. Specially on a country filled with uneducated stupid people (I live in Brazil).

But there's a limit to those cameras.

For instance, I've seen tons of cameras like those placed on downhills with ridiculous speed limits.

Not only that, they are put on places where accidents never occur, and dangerous places where slowing down might result in assault or kidnapping.

You can clearly see that some of those cameras are not put to prevent accidents... they are rather put in specific places that will result in more tickets.

Bokusatsu_Tenshi

how is a camera looking at your license plate an invasion of privacy? Your license plate is public every day that your vehicle is on the road. I think it's nice that these cameras free up the officers to focus their attention elsewhere, instead of having to sit at intersections.

Eventually, people will realize which intersections are manned by these cameras and drive more carefully around them. I know I certainly do here in Tucson where we just got a few.

Seems like an all around good plan to me. The people breaking the law get a civil fine (people tickets and hopefully learn from them), the city in turn gets more revenue and when the people start to cope with the existence of these cameras, tickets go down and so do red light runners. good stuff.

forrestcook

Because government agencies *never* violate laws on privacy. Presidents *never* sign laws that grant immunity to said agencies when those laws are violated. Geez people, look around. Infrastructure never appears over night. Have some foresight.

gizmodome

got to put my 2p's worth in. Could the people who don't know how these things work not chime in with invasion of privacy concerns please, as the cameras don't work like that - they're 'still' cameras triggered by radar detection of overspeed. Other cameras (not shown) record your licence plate entering and exiting a stretch of road to work out your average speed inbetween. They also detect cars without insurance (illegal in the UK) and cars belonging to people with warrants out against them. Pretty good I think.

The bit that bugs me about MAD's actions are that I know repairs done to cameras (which can until recently be ONLY put where someone had a serious accident) is done with money from budgets that would otherwise be spent repairing damage to safety barriers, repairing road signs, repairing potholes, employing school crossing patrols, building new pedestrian crossings. Criminal damage is criminal.

Oh and to geekgoth, if you were only speeding to keep with the flow of traffic, that would mean everyone else got a ticket too?

detailmeister

law is the law, but people can change the law if they follow proper channels.

anyway just send inspector gadget :)

Mike.leger

@GREYER:

A libertarian wouldn't speed; it's a matter of personal responsibility. And, being rational, a libertarian would look to experts to decide what a safe speed is. Those would be the trained engineers hired to figure out the speed limits.

So your idea of personal responsibility is ceding every decision to so-called experts? That's great, because it's not like they're incentivized to set limits artificially low for revenue generation. At least they're personal accountable for their mistakes, right?

gibson042

@NUTBASTARD:

Amen. For every post in this thread, amen.

gibson042

@RETEPNAMENOTS:
@CHAOSLINK:

Bad laws deserve to be broken.

gibson042

Old tire. Fill it with gasoline. Light it. Toss. I wouldn't do it, but i'm glad others do.

Papercutninja

@Sixdust: Hardly like any other country is different.

Onouris

I would hate to see these damn cameras all over the U.S., it's just one more way to get our money. In my opinion, the speed limits in this country need revamped, it seems like they are set up to get you fined for wanting to drive normally.
I live in rural Pa, and drive alot of back roads, lately our state troopers have been setting up speed traps on the popular shortcuts. Ok, I got a ticket, but the cop wrote it up so I didn't get any points on my license, this same cop averages probably 15 tickets a day. So basically I can continue to speed as long as I have the money for the fines, with no worrying about losing my license.

TNTBW

The argument that traffic cameras are an invasion of privacy is completely preposterous. When in a motor vehicle on public roadways, all drivers are subject to the laws of the road. Any public observation of motorists breaking said laws is a purely public activity.

I wouldn't call this terrorism since it's not aimed at people. It's just straight forward vandalism. And anyone caught doing it should be arrested because frankly, the vandals are just wasting taxpayers money.

This does not mean there are not privacy concerns about security cameras. There are increasing numbers of cameras in all sorts of public places, to the point where a person is almost under constant surveillance. These cameras may be owned by private businesses or local governments. Often they are manned by contracted security companies, so you have absolutely no idea who is watching the video feeds, how they are recorded and how long records are retained. Such wholesale surveillance of the population at large is of true concern.

See also: Epic Surveillance

Jeff the Riffer

@Jeff the Riffer:
the VANDALS aren't wasting tax payer money, doofus, the government is.

nutbastard

@Mike.leger:
Im really getting tired of hearing this, because it's a fucking myth when it comes to traffic laws.

nutbastard

@greyer:
A libertarian wouldn't speed? I don't think you know what a libertarian is. Libertarianism = Self Government. I'll decide what's too fast and what isn't. If i'm wrong, i'll take responsibility for my actions.

Furthermore, speed limits are for the most part almost completely arbitrary. They have nothing to do with safety. My road is a one lane two-way mountain road with a 35 speed limit. Other side of the hill, on a road 3 times as wide and a hell of a lot straighter, it's 30. It's 30 because it used to be 35, but the cops weren't giving enough tickets, so they criminalized normal, safe, and previously lawful actions. There was no string of accidents, no study conducted.

nutbastard

EVERYONE GET IN LINE AND DO AS YOU ARE TOLD NO MATTER WHAT.

Scariest thing to hear:

"Im from the Government. Im here to help"

nutbastard

@DakotaEpic:
"just a way of life... learn to live with them..."

That's the most fucking disgusting thing i've heard in weeks. You Are Not A Man.

nutbastard

And for the record, just to piss off the sheeple, my record speed limit breaking is 95 in a 30.

nutbastard

We have them all over the place here in Arizona. they're just a way of life, word usually get out among people where the new ones pop up and you just learn to live with them. Ours are set to take your picture if you are going 11 over on regular roads, and 6 over in school zones. Which in this state, technically 1 over in a school zone is felony speeding.

DakotaEpic

@Sihanouk-s-Poodle:
My contendedness with existence is not germane.
Why cant a man be outraged and satisfied with life at the same time? This shit doesn't keep me up at night or anything. If you had anything relavent to say, you wouldn't resort to the juvenile practice of character assassination. Some of us see that our government is fucked up, and the rest of you would gladly be led into a fucking gas chamber, if they made a law requiring you to do so.

nutbastard

I like MAD. It's better than the MAD here in the US. Speed Cameras are crap. The good thing is with speed cameras such as Specs, you can out do them. I won't post it here but if you read on www.radardetector.net you will know how ;)

stlouisx50

Wow, what a bunch of drones. Calling civil disobedience terrorists is beyond me. These are the type of people who would sit idly by in revolutionary America, calling the protesters at Boston Harbor "terrorists" simply not understanding why they don't just obey the law...

Shingo56

The problem with the cameras is more about their potential use as opposed to the current one. While I don't condone the wanton destruction of anything you just don't like, taking action against something so potentially invasive may be commendable. Your government having the ability to track your movement at it's whim is something to be concerned about. It's just another erosion of our real and perceived freedoms that comes packaged as something "good" for us, protecting us. We should have the ability to move through our day with a sense of privacy that comes from anonymity. When we are on camera so much of the time we are outside of out homes we have lost that. This isn't tinfoil hat stuff, this addressing the fact that power is often abused by those that have it and all of these cameras can easily become a tool for that abuse.

zeddzero

Its big brother crap. I am glad they smash the things for the benefit of those of us not man enough to stand up for our own rights.

polyex

I really hope they don't try to put that many of those in the US. But hopefully the US populous isn't as complacent as they have been of late.

...On second thought, we're fucked if they put those in.

GforGRENADE

Stop your bitching people! If you don't break the law, then the law doesn't come looking for you. It is that simple. You don't like the speed limits in your town, state, bring it up with your local officials. Get enough people together, petition them and get them changed.

The people that believe speed limits are there just to make the government money, you are truly stupid. How could you possibly think, without research, that it isn't about safety. It is in fact about safety and traffic control. Would you go 95 in a school zone while school is finished for the day? Of course some of you would but your the people I would love to watch burn in their car after crashing.

Every single road in America needs these camera's, to take pictures (not video), ticket and or arrest for these traffic infractions. Cars should have never been made to go faster then 60 mphs in the first place but since they had, we need a way to keep people in check! Police should be out there stopping other assholes from committing murder, rape, robberies and all the other heinous crimes. Police should not be out there babysitting your foolish driving habits. Your privacy won't be effected, unless of course your stupid (like the lot of you) and you go off and speed.

If your speeding your speeding, 11 mph or 6 mph or not. If you are going faster then the posted speed limit plus or minus 2, then you should get a ticket. No more going 55-60-65-70 in a 75, and no more going 35 in a 30. Start punishing these people with more then a dollar sign. Get enough people off the roads, we might just be able to curb our addiction to OIL!

gamershq

Grow up morons. I'm guessing from the content of some of these posts that a lot of you have yet to reach puberty. Speed cameras have been proven to save lives - it's only the number of lives per camera that's in dispute. Selfish petrolheads just hate anything that slows them down, or having to pay for breaking a life-saving law. Go kill yourselves on German autobahns and do us all a favour. Me, I'm joining the campaign for a 20mph speed limit in London. Something for you to look forward to.

Notbraindead

@gamershq:

Does your "form a petition" method apply to all bad laws? Alcohol prohibition was destroyed by widespread disregard long before people were able to mount enough political force to repeal it, and speed limits currently have FAR less compliance than prohibition ever did. Ironically, your dream of ticketing cameras on "every single road in America" may very well be what finally turns popular opinion against them.

And make no mistake, the real purpose of speed limits is most definitely state revenue. They are almost always set 10 mph or more BELOW the 85th percentile speed recommended by traffic engineers! (National Cooperative Highway Research Program; Report 504: Design Speed, Operating Speed, and Posted Speed Practices; [trb.org]). Which means that at any given time, on any given road, about 50% to 70% of the cars are exceeding posted limits and thus ripe for the tax known as a "speeding ticket". Even in the face of triple-digit fines, speed limits just aren't followed and have no significant effect on speed or crashes. (U.S. Department of Transportation Turner-Fairbank Highway Research Center; Synthesis of Safety Research Related to Speed and Speed Limits; [www.tfhrc.gov]) (United Kingdom Department for Transport; Circular Roads 1/80, Annex E; [www.abd.org.uk]) So much for increased safety, too.

Take your totalitarian wet dream someplace else; civilized people clearly aren't interested.

gibson042

Those speed cameras are a violation of our basic constitution rights. Banned here in Minnesota and glad to leave it so.

ninjatales