@dobyblue:

we are having a civil conversation and dobyblue comes in here and tries to start a flame war...you have only posted 3 times EVER and the other 2 were in the State of Blu-Ray thread...are you some paid Blu-Ray rep or some fanboi gone nutz? I mean seriously...if you don't have anything good to add to the conversation or at least funny...STFU.

O and no prob EMOSHUNZ I just found that a good article with a non biased view of 1080p...and the tech behind it.

Seiven

@Seiven: sorry, misinterpreted that.

EMoShunz

HD-DVD has had a size advantage since launch! 30GB vs 25GB! AND before you argue with me try to find a 50GB BR movie anywhere.They don't exist and 50GB hd-dvd disc's should be here any minute.
I just compared 2001 a space odyssey on a hd-a3 with planet earth on the PS3 and can easily say HD-DVD rules the roust for picture quality and interface.
IMHO

fastm3driver

@Seiven: why'd you have to link to that article...enter a whole other debate :P

EMoShunz

one more thing...when will TVs even display a true 1080p video [gizmodo.com] doesn't this mean the argument that 1080p is better than 720p is stupid, I mean do 720p sets output at a steady 720p signal?

Seiven

Wow Gizmodo - they didn't come to your debate.
Get over yourself.
Your "State" article is so outdated anyway.
1) There are several titles announced for January with 1.1 specs
2) The Samsung BD-P1400 is $339 now
3) The dual player is one off, Samsung have already announced they are
no longer neutral but back to Blu
4) Panasonic is more involved with Blu than Sony, currently doing all
the AVC/MPEG-4 encodes for Fox and Disney, putting out plasmas for the
Magical Blu-ray Mall tour, having the premiere standalone player (1.1)
already on market with as yet matched PQ
5) Denon's player isn't coming out in December, it'll be Q1/08
6) All 1.1 discs will be playable in 1.0 player and the 1.1 content
will be viewable as a separate featurette, so the consumer isn't
missing any content
7) Profile 1.1 players don't require 256MB internal storage - it can
be an external USB drive, SD card, etc.
8) What is fancy about downloading and burning a CD?

Blu-ray is fearful of debating against HD DVD. What a laugh.

dobyblue

@EMoShunz:

I agree I prefer DLP to Plasma, but LCD is tried and true...I have a 50" DLP for movies and a 27" wide screen LCD for casual TV viewing in the bedroom.

whatever the result of this "war" is I think we as consumers need to speak out and tell the industry that they need to $#!T or get off the pot...this is screwing us by splitting viewers from the best viewing experience.

Seiven

whatever happened to those holographic disks that were going to rock all over both formats in terms of raw storage. Weren't we supposed to have a working model by now? 'cause 300GB on a disk would make me happy.

odoketa

@EMoShunz:
No, I get what you're saying, and I'm not calling him an idiot by any stretch. When I was looking at 1080p sets, I did the same thing... until the set I had crapped out on me... three times... and I realized I was getting as good a picture on HD signals with my larger 720p set as my smaller 1080p set, and a better picture on SD signals... for $500 less.

Anyways, I do think there is a difference between an interlaced signal and a progressive scan signal in general (probably more what he's saying... I'm really talking 720p vs. 1080p and why I think 1080p is wildly overrated), but I can't say how significant it is with all things being equal.

EvilJ

@EMoShunz:

I was just saying...when are we going to get these babies...those things are next gen...screw physical media altogether I want to see movies and games in photorealistic holographic 3d laser shows. ie "Help me Obi-Wan" from Star wars...lol

but on another note don't some studios use beta still? I mean every piece of tech has a place...some get into niche markets and some go for mass consumption...DVDs went to mass consumption and MAYBE one of these will...maybe not...who knows.

Seiven

i have to defend robinandtami here. take out the fact that dlp is going to display 1080p better then any other 1080p medium, i've noticed that though (in a store with a split signal) 1080p/i 'look' similar, they 'feel' different. don't ask me to explain, i can't...it's not scientific.

EMoShunz

@Butterknife:
But, you forgot that Bang Bros is HD-DVD exclusive!

No, seriously, one of my friends returned his HD-DVD player and bought a PS3 after he had three crap out on him. That, plus he was mega-disappointed to hear that the Spielberg catalogue wasn't included in the Paramount/DreamWorks deal.

EvilJ

@Butterknife: great info!

EMoShunz

@Seiven: turner is already using these to backup all their broadcasts (the 300GB version currently).

EMoShunz

@robinandtami:
Yeah, there is a big difference between HDMI and component in general. I can tell the difference on my 720p set between the same signal (720p and 1080i) using component versus HDMI. Component sucks in general.

That said, picture quality also depends on the set. I briefly had a 42" 1080p LCD that had a worse picture quality than the 50" 720p DLP set I currently have. I can honestly say that after having had "glorious" 1080p... unless you're sitting a foot away from the screen, you're paying for the placebo effect.

EvilJ

When you're calling people out you, have the facts guys:

HD DVD added one studio for a total of 2 - Uni and Paramount. Dreamworks is not a studio they are owned and distributed by Par. There is one manufacturer of hardware, Toshiba. The Onkyo and Venturer players are all Toshiba. No one else will make them because at $98 there is no money in it.

BD has had 3 exclusive studios from the get-go - Sony, Fox and Disney plus the largest indie, Lionsgate. Panasonic, Sony (PS3), Samsung, Pioneer and the other key brands are all in active development and manufacturing of players and drives at a variety of price points.

Butterknife

Second emoshunz. HVD's will be the wave of the future.
3.9 TB's of storage per disc? That's amazing. At 20 GB/movie, you can store ~200 HD movies on each disc. Add a high speed connection to download the movies, and you're entire movie library can be kept inside a multi-disc player.

crash

@robinandtami: Were you using the same cable? No? there's your answer as to why it looked better.

Mclarenlover69

Oops, hit submit and I really wanted to add this. One thing about the formats is the content on the disc is data, which means it is up to the player to support different formats and up-scaling.

One player may support 1080p, and another may not. It's not whether or not it is BluRay or HD DVD.

TheBear91

@EMoShunz:

whoa...2 years ago...blast from the past...speaking of which where the hell are the flying cars they promised us by 2000?

Seiven

For movies (which are basically all 24p), 1080i vs. 1080p HD media player makes absolutely no difference even if your monitor is 1080p:

[hometheatermag.com]

The monitor has to do 3:2 pulldown anyway to 'upsample' the 24 FPS content to 60 FPS. Basically, that 24 FPS is the rate limiting factor or bottleneck in terms of image data, not whether the content is 1080i or 1080p coming out of the player. As long as the monitor deinterlaces a 1080i signal correctly, it makes no difference whether the signal is 1080i or 1080p- there's no new content.

But yeah, as someone else said both formats are capable of 1080p, even if some cheaper players may not.

madmaxmedia

given that most people (meaning, normal consumers, that don't frequent avs forum etc.) think that upconverting dvd players are 'hd' I think this 'war' is currently quite pointless.

I couldn't care less which player goes down to $100 if movies are $35 and no matter which one you pick you're going to miss out nearly half the catalog. I am sticking with broadcast HD on my PVR, and to upconverted standard DVDs: wake me up when there will be a unified format selling for $15 or less a movie (excluding bogos, special offers and so on).

What dreams may come

@TheBear91: YUP...
[gizmodo.com]

EMoShunz

By the time this "war" is settled, there will be a new format out that has 10x the capacity.

To hell with it, buy more harddrives and download! LOL

...every 18 months...

TheBear91

@EMoShunz: Agreed.

As someone else has said on this site, content is king, and so far Blu-Ray and HD DVD are mere paupers that are wrestling with each other while the DVD king sits on his throne and laughs, because he knows that while everyone is rushing out to get HDTV's and high-priced players and scoring bundle deals with Hi-Def discs they may or may not want, getting combo drives so they can use both, or have two players because content is split between formats, Joe Schlub can use his 32" flat screen, standard DVD player and have his entire library span across a single low-cost format. I love a happy ending. Don't you?

Kaiser-Machead

Blu-Ray Chickens Out Of Debate: Format Problems Looming? on Gadget Lab

I think the best format would be the one that can give us quality HD movies for less.
It seems HD-DVD is the way to go as from a manufacturing point of view its cheaper to make HD-DVDs than Blu-Ray Discs. HD-DVD can be produced in factories already producing DVDs while Blu-Ray needs a new FAB all together. Less cost = savings for end users.

subzi

@Lizard_King: i was referring to the possibility that (like beta) one format, lets say HD-DVD looses and you can't find new players when yours breaks and you've invested a grand into HD-DVD discs.

EMoShunz

I'm sticking with my VHS.

mikestan86

Why do discs need to be repurchased? I don't understand.

I have an HD-DVD player, I have two movies. I have Chronicles of Riddick on standard DVD and it plays fine (and much better than on the old DVD player).

Buying an HD player opened up the opportunity for me to buy better quality movies, and if I decide, I can get an HD version of Total Recall to replace my standard DVD one. But nowhere does it say you HAVE to buy all new movies.

Lizard_King

My vote is for Nader-Disc.

Khufu01

i really want blu-ray to win in the end and they are ahead. but looking at the prices right now, unless blu-ray drasticly slashes prices hddvd will win. the average consumer isnt going to spend nearly twice as much for a blu-ray player and since the only advantage blu-ray has is an extra 5 gigs per layer, which isnt a big deal. i am a sony fan and love the ps3 but they and the others in the blu-ray camp are messing this war up big time. makes me want to go get an hddvd player since they are getting pretty cheap now.

reebs82

Haven't seen HD-DVD anywhere. Just wish BD had better movies.

heroineworshipper

@OldSchoolGadgetLover: I AGREE, the price of the player either way is a 'whatever' type of thing, it's a collection of 20 discs ($600) down the road that may have to be re-purchased.

EMoShunz

off topic...

Homer Simpson - "He DID say 'Well' a lot!"

I always laugh when i think about that episode!

citykids

@rockosolido: I don't think the price of the unit is what's holding everyone up.

I think everyone is afraid of investing hundreds of dollars in discs that may one day become obsolete, and then they would either have to buy them again in the "winning" format or rip them and copy them to the winning format (but of course we don't have the right to do that anymore).

OldSchoolGadgetLover

@Loremaster101: Don't forget the early VAIO laptops with bum DVD/CD-RW drives.

Bottom line: Cost trumps all. That includes players + content.

jibbly

@Seiven:

I used to say the same thing.... there's no visible difference between 1080i and 1080p. I'm no HDTV newb. I've had HD for six years now. I'm on my fourth HDTV and still own all but the original.


Then I watched Shrek the Third on HD-DVD. I played it first on my 47" 1080p LCD, but was only viewing it in 1080i because the player was hooked up over component on that TV. Then I watched it in all it's full 1080p glory on my 57" DLP. I could definitely see a difference in image quality between 1080i and 1080p. This isn't the first thing I've watched on both TV's, but it is the first time I've seen a truly noticable difference. I'm sure that was because details are usually more noticable with CGI anyway.

robinandtami

Seriously, let's do eenie meenie miney moe, because I need a hi-def player and I don't want to get stuck with some obsolete piece of retro-trash. Personally, I think HD-DVD has a better chance with Joe Consumer because of 3 specific letters: "DVD" They are comfortable with the word, and humans are creatures of habit. I do not like digital distribution due to DRM. If I download a movie, how do I bring it to a friend's house to watch? Also, lets look at some of Sony's past proprietary formats:

Umatic (~1968), Betamax (1975), Betacam (81), Compact Disc (82), 3.5 inch Floppy Disk (82), Video8 (85), DAT (87), Hi8 (88), Minidisc (~90), Digital Betacam (~90), miniDV (92), Digital8 (99), PSP Universal Media Disc (~2003), HighDV (~2004), Blu-ray Disc (2006).

How many are you using at home right now?

Amsterdaam

@razordu30:
Not wrong... but optimistic, I think. I'd like to see digital distribution (mostly because I'm a "I want it now!" type) but there are a lot of factors that would have to be fixed before it could be done.

First, there is the issue of bandwidth. There are a ton of people who don't even have highspeed internet yet or even available in their area (strange but true). Even now the highspeed companies are restricting the amount of downloading a user can do to save the bandwidth on their networks.

Second, there is the issue of storage. People like having movies. Some people are the collector types who want to have 200-300 DVDs (I have two friends like this). Sure, there are also people who just want a copy of Grease and Rio Bravo (like my parents), but I think that the people who want more than that outweigh those who would be in the digital distribution market. How much room would a drive have to have to keep the general collector happy? Depends on the file size, but currently, with HD-DVDs and Blu-rays doing 30gb-50gb for uncompressed video and audio (audio where I've noticed the biggest difference)... it'd have to be pretty massive yet cost effective. That, I think can be accomplished in the next 5 years.

Third, there is the matter of distribution in general. How much server space will the networks/studios want to supply? How much of that will retailers want to do? I mean, imagine trying to download an HD copy of a movie like 300 (which was about 5 gigs IIRC for Xbox Live users) on the day it's released to the public. It'd take forever and be a massive strain on the servers themselves. Now, think of that in terms of 30gb-50gb.

Fourth, how profitable will it really be? At this time, the cost of manufacturing and shipping probably results in a higher profit margin than digital distribution would (accounting for all the things I mentioned in the post above) due to the fact that more people will likely pay the same or more to HAVE something. What I mean is, Universal is releasing the Bourne movies for use on the Vudu set-top box, and charging $25 a download which is about in line with the HD-DVD version. I think think that they'd really have to offer it for significantly less to get people on board (a la iTunes charging less than the cost of a CD) to get people to switch from a phyical medium to a digital one because people like being able to hold their purchase.

As is, I'd love to go buy a flash drive or something at Wal-mart that had the complete series of Curb Your Enthusiasm in HD, but it's cost prohibitive at this point. The cheapest way to distribute large amounts of data for the manufacturers, and thus ensures the larger profit margin currently.

As everyone has said though, DVD is currently kicking both formats' asses, and that's not likely to change any time soon.

EvilJ

My first question would be why are the studios playing games and releasing crappy new releases? We learned our lesson with DVDs - wait for the DTS version. Why not release DTS-MA on the first release?

I'm not buying either until all the movies are DTS-MA. I'll buy a LOT of high def DVDs when they stop playing games and release excellent quality cuts the first time - no special editions, no ultimate editions - just best definition - not going to get better -this one was done right the first time editions.

In the mean time - most people I know are just copying standard DVDs until the whole war blows over - I think the studios are shooting themselves in the groin.

boe

I believe the consumer will choose. The majority of consumers don't care about the specs. Hell, I just bought a 1080p 52" LCD even though I spent an hour trying to tell the difference in picture between a 720p and a 1080p right next to each other. Most consumers are not faced with the knowledge we have. We know there is a technical difference so we tend to choose based on that. Mom and Pop and Grandma and Grandpa and brother johnny the psych major are going to go for the cheaper model.

We are cursed because we know what the specs mean. Personally I don't give a shit if BD holds more information because all I want is to see my freakin' movie. I am not saying one is better than the other. I am saying HDDVD is cheaper and will win because of that.

rednecktech

Whoever drops the price per disc under $28-30 wins. The end.

rockosolido

just a few weeks back, i managed to score an hd-a3 hd-dvd player, 7 hd-dvd's i chose at the store, and another 5 i mailed in for - all for the whopping total of $109 out the door - at that price, it doesnt really matter to me who wins - if all else fails, ill have one of the best upscaling sd-dvd players on the market that has the added perk of playing hd-dvds as well

and as far as 1080p goes (which both formats support, so im not quite sure why its even a talking point, but ill play) - id be willing to bet you can plop 10 self-proclaimed videophiles into a room with a 42 or 50 inch plasma (which are the two most commonly sold sizes of hd sets) and not a single one would be able to tell you if it was a 1080i or 1080p picture piping through the screen (barring those who would simply guess the correct answer)

Kricket

It's not wrong to suspect at all. It's just common sense that the easiest way to watch movies will win out. The ONLY reason we still have physical distribution is because the movie industry doesn't want it.

The old cooters running the movie studios will spend the next 10 years trying to figure out how to make more money than they do now with internet distribution.

bdkennedy1

I feel for anyone using a PS3 as a Blue Ray player.
Sony has a bad history for the lasers in their console systems going out of "Sync", requiring the user to either send it out to have it re-aligned, or doing it themselves voiding their warranty.

I am on my 3rd PS2 for that very reason....

Loremaster101

i'm fortunate. i'm running 480i. in theory my wii will do edtv at 480p. so, by the time i can afford the hdtv i want, it'll be a year at least (maybe next black friday or cyber monday) i'll be forced to wait another year-ish to buy an hd player. so, i've got about a year and a half before i need to worry about it.

personally i'm rooting for the blu-ray given that i will be able to keep costs down by buying a ps3 and (potentially) getting a pvr and iptv built in with the blu-ray player, and disc costs should be less because of the higher production for games too.

EMoShunz

I gave in and got the Toshiba HD-A3 Amamzon deal last week. The player and 10 movies for $197 delivered to my door. That is with 2 day shipping. Even at the cheapest HD-DVD price it would cost me 200 for 10 HD-DVDs. The player is virtually free. Good movie selection for my first 10 titles. If you like movies just get one or the other. It is not like the player will stop working when they decide on one format or the other. You will still be able to play what you buy. Here is what I picked for my 10.

Casino
The Last Starfighter
The Big Lebowski
300
The Bourne Identity
Bable
The Hulk
Full Metal Jacket
US: Rattle and Hum
Troy

Husar

Is it wrong to suspect than in less than 5 years, people won't really be storing information in physical discs anymore? I think remote access is going to win out, and people are going to buy movies online and have it stream to some kind of player, HD format or not.

I do that with Tivo + Amazon Unbox and think it's awesome.

razordu30

@Kaiser-Machead:
agreed...what size TV does someone need before they can tell a difference between 720p and 1080p? 55" 60" 72" I will enjoy my 50" that does 720p and 1080i and continue to take advantage of Netflix's HDDVD offering...for titles I buy I will stick with good ole DVD

Seiven

@redman042: Amen. Seriously, who gives a rat's ass about 1080p or 1080i? When you have maybe half or less of the movies you like confined to one format, you know the formats suck. Hard.

DVD is the way to go.

Kaiser-Machead

I'll stick with DVD for now, but watch the monkey knife fight with interest.

strider_mt2k

Until the Average Joe owns an HDTV, this doesn't matter.

Even then, I tell anyone who will listen that to get the most out of either format, you need an HDTV and a decent surround sound system, otherwise you're wasting your money.

That said, I do find it infinitely interesting (alliteration, eh?) that Universal is branching out to early digital distribution with Vudu. Should fail miserably, but it almost appears as if Universal is trying to get off of the HD-DVD bandwagon without breaking contracts.

EvilJ

I bought Blu Ray, and put it in my PC. I want HD DVD too, but no one around here sells an internal HD DVD burner for a PC! Anyway, it still plays my old DVDs, and I've installed AVG Rootkit Detector, but won't put in any Sony made Blu Ray disc, until they efing learn NOT to do that ****!

bugstomper2

I'm holding out for HD Laserdisc myself.

Mayor McRib

Wow. A story about there not being a story that eventually devolves into a playground pissing contest.

smitty1123

When prices of a High Def DVD player (of either format) go below $100, like HD-DVD has with the A2 model, it's a no-brainer to buy one. It's an excellent upconverting DVD player for your SD discs, and even if PS3's come down dramatically at some point in the future, it will be a price-neutral event for anyone who bought an hd-dvd at $98.

Low pricing is what's going to win this war. NO average Joe DVD watcher (like your folks) cares about a gaming console or disc capacity. No one. Get over that ludicrous argument.

daTruth

i still have yet to be able to afford buying an hdtv.

conglomerate

Here we go with the pointless arguments about which format is technically superior. More storage, sharper image, etc. etc. etc. It's all shite. In my mind it's been pretty much settled that, when it comes to actually using your eyes to watch the movies that come out of these formats, they look pretty much the same. So who friggin cares which has more storage, bitrate, whatever?

Since image quality is essentially equal, the bottom line for me is PRICE and CONTENT. Content is pretty much a wash, since each format has some of the good stuff. That's why this "war" sucks, because if you choose one format, you can't get all the movies.

Since I just set up a high end projection home theater, I had to have one of them, so I took the cheapest route at the moment (HD-DVD) so that I can watch SOME movies in high def, then I'll just sit tight for a while.

redman042

@DeadWriter: holographic disc is already technically out, up to 1.6 TB in the next couple years...make a great media for that quad hd westinghouse tv (2160p) at 120 fps...

EMoShunz

$177 for an HD-A3 + 10 free HD-DVDs at Amazon = votes for HD-DVD from me, my parents, my sister, and 3 of my coworkers so far this holiday season.

At $177, I don't care who wins, I can get $177 worth of entertainment out of that deal immediately.

werk

Here we go again :)

Earthslide

that photoshop is perfect for this post. blu-ray and hd-dvd are like the democrat and republican parties: neither is a good choice! i don't really care which one wins, and i'll stick with dvd til one does.

and yeah, blu-ray backing out is lame.

manguero

Thanks guys.

EMoShunz

I was surprised that on Amazon's vote contest (you vote for a HD DVD player or Blu Ray player and the one with the most votes gets sold at $149 to like 500 people the HD DVD player trounced the Blu-Ray player. Even though the winner would be sold for $149 no matter which one won (which makes the Blu Ray player a much better deal) more people still chose HD DVD.

frigg

If we wait long enough a better format will come out- trumping both HD and BD.

DeadWriter

@Kaiser-Machead:
they will...rest assured they will

and @EMOSHUNZ YES HDDVD DOES 1080P I can't stand it when fanbois...either side of the argument don't "fact check" themselves before they troll and toss flames. The format war is stupid for consumers and will continue to be nothing but a pain in all of our @$$3$ until one side or the other gives in...didn't Blu-Ray consortium spokesperson say they wished they had joined the talks about unified format over a year ago in a Giz story early this month?

Seiven

@EMoShunz: Yes, they both do 1080p.

I'll go fo whatever format starts some sort of trade in program where I trade a DVD for the HiDef version at a discount. That will get me buying real quick.

Xenocide

I'm sticking to not wasting my money on something that isn't standard yet. GG

randotheking

I was really looking forward to this, this is too bad.

Well, I'm off to watch The Revenge of the Nerds on Betamax now!

BLAKELEY

If Sony wins, let's hope they don't put rootkits in their discs.

Kaiser-Machead

According to Wikipedia, HD-DVD supports both 1080i and 1080p.

But they could offer a $10 HD-DVD player at Walgreens and I still wouldn't buy it.

bdkennedy1

And yet according to the picture, Blu-Ray is "the Great Communicator". P'raps a pic of JFK v. Nixon would be more apropos.

omg-ponies

here's a fact checker everyone could let me in on. i get conflicting stories all over the web:
can hd dvd do 1080p?
if not, then why the hell is this even a fight.

EMoShunz

The battle sucks. More storage is better IMO which od course isn't worth much in the grand scheme of things. I like Blu-Ray more data and super quality video. It's the main reason I have stood by my PS3 for the videos. The games are coming finally but still need more content.

WilCon

I'm sticking to Blu-ray. The payoff by Toshiba was a low blow and put how much their format is behind into perspective. Truth be told though, DVD is still the winner but Ill continue to purchase into Blu-ray.

ImTheKing

@fastm3driver: hmm i could list all the 50 gig blu ray titles but it would take too long so i'll just tell you that all of Kubrick's movies on blu ray are BD-50 discs. As far as your comparison of PQ how the hell can you compare 2001 to planet earth, it's not the same movie. Buy 2001 on blu ray then tell me you can see a difference, to save you the time i have it on both formats and there is no way you could tell which one was hd dvd or blu ray, they look exactly the same.

browntornado

@Loremaster101: I have an original PS2 bought on Launch day and it still works perfect. The laser thing was mostly people getting way too excited that the PS2 worked vertically and horizontally and moving the thing while the laser was active.

@fastm3driver: 50GB discs: Die Hard 4, Spider-man 3, all the POTC movies, any Pixar movie, Hell pretty much every Disney movie... the list goes on and on. Stop trolling. The point is that Blu-ray has the extra space when needed, while HD DVD doesn't have that option: everything needs to be crammed in 30GB no matter what. It's not much of an advantage (like being able to buy 300 wallpapers or whatever on HD DVD isn't much of an advantage), but it's still useful for certain movies (I'm thinking LOTR will benefit immensely).

Padriac

@fastm3driver:
Good work... you're comparing dual layer (HD-DVD: 30GB) to single layer (Blu-ray: 25GB).

There are numerous dual-layer Blu-rays out, and have been for about a year... (I want to say the first one came out in October 2006).

Now, if you want to ask what Blu-ray uses all 50GB... I couldn't tell you, and that may be a valid question.

Seriously, though...

To everyone that says one is better than the other... that's crazy and fanboy-ish. They're both about equal, and the features that each has over the other is probably something that you can't really count against them.

I'm sorry, I still have yet to see the real benefit of an ethernet port on the HD-DVD players (oooh, you can remix 300 and share it online!? let me run to the store) or the additional codec support that Blu-ray offers (tech saavy though I am). I've experienced both, and what it came down to for me was... one had a lot more titles that I personally wanted than the other. I'm disappointed that I can't get Transformers in HD, same for the Bourne movies and a few miscellaneous others (Children of Men, Smokin' Aces)...

But, I got a PS3 and the Blu-ray titles I wanted... so... there.

EvilJ

@kackey22:
I know that was a strong argument at the jump, that the inclusion of the letters "DVD" would confuse the consumer into supporting the format...

Problem is, Blu-ray and HD-DVD is still selling to the bleeding edge consumer who knows the difference between Blu-ray and HD-DVD... the assumption that HD-DVD would be better in a market composed of mostly non-informed buyers is probably dead on. Problem with that whole assumption is that they're not competing with the uninformed consumer, they're dealing with the tech-saavy.

That said, I will allow that HD-DVD is probably picking up the "Hey, this will make DVDs on our 10-year-old Zenith look like 'HD'" sales more so than Blu-ray... but I don't know how many sales that really is.

EvilJ

@fastm3driver: You have defined the word "moron". Congratulations. Now go back to building your lincoln log fort.

ImTheKing

@kackey22: Think international baby.

Do you think other countries watch things in "HD"?

That might explain how BD is beating HD-DVD outside the US. HD-DVD might just sound like another DVD player.

Techguy1138

to the average consumer, if they want HD video, they need to buy a HD-DVD player, not some blu-ray player. They are not wanting to watch blu-ray TV after all.

Sony wont win this one.

kackey22

Fact bluray is outselling HD DVD in the US and Europe (I think mostly on the back of the PS3)but what if Micro$oft starting selling the 360 with a HD drive ?

kiwijaws

@EvilJ:

Actually, I am sitting about 7 feet away from a 57" DLP. No doubt my DLP has an all round better picture than my 47" LCD, and yes; I know HDMI is better than component. That being said, I have watched the same content on both TV's many times, and have never noticed any real difference in terms of the amount of detail that can be seen. I was always one that said there's no difference in 1080i and 1080p because of those experiences. However, there was a definite noticable difference with the CGI content in Shrek. No, it wasn't my imagination. I've had HDTV in my home since the early days when less than 3% of Americans were watching HDTV. I know how to critique the picture quality.

robinandtami

LASER DICS! WOOH! (j.k)

DJJS

@EvilJ: Actually the ethernet port is a godsend for firmware updates, no looking on the interent downloading then burning it to a DVD/CD then putting that in the player. Just a couple of clicks then waiting for the firmware to update. @Type-E: Yeap thats what I paid for mine so if HD DVD goes belly up I still have a decent upconverting DVD player that I got cheaply can those who brought a standalone Blu-Ray player say that(talking about price)

kiwijaws

I think $99 is a no brainer.

Type-E

Why can't they just combine the technologies into one decent format. Instead we waste consumer money and RD on a pointless inefficient format battle.

HDDVD is winning according to Google Trends:
[www.google.com]

tmrr

Having them back out like this says it all. HD DVD is definitely the more consumer-friendly choice. If word gets out anymore that Blu-ray lacks the features, standardization, and price advantages that HD DVD has, it would definitely kill whatever momentum is has left for Blu-ray. All of Blu-ray's advantages only appeal to corporations and studios bent on protecting their movies, not the consumer. HD DVD's advantages directly benefit the consumer.

Fortunately for Blu-ray, it has the PS3 carrying the entire format on its back, otherwise Blu-ray would be dead. Even now, it may still become known as just the "PS3 format." They should have waited two years to finalize all mandatory features before even releasing the format. Having these multiple profile updates for Blu-ray players are only going to anger customers when they find out when their Blu-ray player cannot take advantage of newer features without buying a completely new player. Even then, the utilization of these features may never be realized due to a lack of standardization.

Blu-ray is a complete mess. While, they're playing catch-up, HD DVD got it right from the beginning.

dynamius

@redman042:

Redman: you're not allowed to talk about this logically! Only spastic mis-informed hyperbole is allowed!

ianken

@kiwijaws: as much as ms is a pain, i don't think their stupid. by keeping the hd-dvd drive separate they make more money AND if it loses they can sell add on BRD drives and keep the same esthetics.

i have actually learned a lot in this comment line, thanks all (even the flamers)

EMoShunz

i like the red monkey better!

Solidsky

In my mind I've always seen Blu-ray as having the potential to be better, but I'm not sure of it's viability because Sony is backing them.

Anyway, I've got netflix and it costs the same to get both types so it doesn't matter to me. If I eventually get a PS3 I'll watch Blu-ray movies, otherwise, I'm sticking with my 360.

avrohim

dear blueray:
please croak, but its ok if you stay for PS3 games... out of my sight and out of my mind.

Gilliam

@ImTheKing: Blu-Ray consortium has offered many of the same 'benefits' for studio exclusivity....HD-DVD just promised Paramount more than the BDA could...

I think that is the one thing Toshiba is pushing this like there is no tomorrow....they will licenses HD-DVD to anybody and everybody (even the Chinese manufacturers that bring competition and reduce prices...BDA wont even license to them)...That is where many of Sony's proprietary or joint-proprietary formnats fail, they try to hard to lock it down and prevent too much competition from low cost manufacturers...

thats just it though...Toshiba and the HD-DVD group is ready to take more losses and more competition...they came in expecting an uphill battle and the BDA came in expecting a KO...so the HD-DVD group was prepared and had at least a framework of a strategy in place...BDA's plan included 4 steps:

step 1 create format
step 2 PS3
step 3 ????
step 4 profit!

and you have to admit thats at least partly true...I mean when the PS3 was not being used for movies by as many people as they had hoped they really had no back up plan and are still trying to regroup and reformulate a strategy...

Loker

@Loker: good point. like i said before, i am glad i have a year and a half before this really effects me :)

EMoShunz

@robinandtami:
Again, I realized as I was writing that I'm more going into the 720p vs. 1080p instead of what you're saying, and I'd tend to agree. I didn't see a noticeable difference between 720p on a DLP set and 1080p on an LCD set (actually, if anything, the DLP was much better), but I will say that I saw a difference when I had the 1080p set, 1080p signals (via my PS3) did look cleaner than 1080i resolutions from my cable box.

When I realized that, I kinda said as much, basically saying I was probably responding with a totally different thing in mind.

@Loker:
OK, I'm assuming (and correct me if I'm wrong) that when you're referring to the whole "People don't use their PS3s for Blu-ray" thing, you're referring to the infamous NPD poll that showed that "only 40% of PS3 owners are aware of Blu-ray playback capability."

As a PS3 owner, and a guy who has seen several friends (amazingly enough) buy PS3s for the expressed interest of using it mostly as a Blu-ray player, I found this hard to believe so I did some research. What I found out was that NPD used approximately 8,000 people in an online poll where they participants had to be between ages of 8-65 (IIRC), and the only requisite was that the partcipants own at least one next-gen system (Nintendo DS, Xbox 360, Wii, PSP, PS3). The same poll found that "only 30% of Xbox 360 owners are aware of the 360's ability to generate HD graphics." These results and the requirements for the data pool lead me to believe that the findings are likely skewed.

Now, going further, the next step people took with this data is that a question was asked about the frequency of Blu-ray use on the PS3. Of those surveyed, the respondants said that they had only used the PS3 for Blu-ray play back once out of the last two times they had turned the machine on. I've seen the HD-DVD consortium take that information, and then say "Only 20% of PS3 owners use their machine for Blu-ray playback."

See what they did there? Even if we say that the 40% number was correct (which I don't think it is), you can't take a result that says that the 40% only used it for Blu-ray half of the time they used it, that this means only half of that 40% used it for Blu-ray playback.

It's a nice little turn with numbers to try and make it show something it does not.

I will say this: the Blu-ray attachment rate isn't what it should be for the PS3, and when you basically say that, including PS3s and stand-alones versus HD-DVD add-ons and stand-alones is somewhere between 4:1 and 6:1 (depending on who's stats you use), yet Blu-ray versus HD-DVD disc sales is something like 2:1-4:1... it's clear that the attachment rate per player on the HD-DVD side has to be higher.

EvilJ

Isn't triple-layer HD-DVD supposed to be supported by all HD-DVD players out there nowadays (ISTR it was part of the original HD-DVD spec)? Sure it's 15GB/layer, but apparently, the 17GB/layer spec makes it even easier to read HD-DVDs because the bits are packed more tightly (go figure)... triple-layer 17GB equals that of double-layer BDs (are they still having yield issues with them?). Funny thing - Disney (Blu-Ray supporter), voted FOR the 17GB/layer spec (add to triple layer HD-DVDs, you get 51GB). DVD Forum members who are aligned with the Blu-Ray Association are supposed to abstain from voting on HD-DVD standards (to avoid accusations of sabotaging HD-DVD).

Not sure of Blu-Ray supports triple layer, though.

OTOH, what Sony's done with the PS3 is probably what'll push Blu-Ray adoption. Sacrifice the gaming aspect of it, but sell more Blu-Ray discs as there's nothing else to play on it.

The other benefit of Blu-Ray is all the DRM that studios love, and that HD-DVD never adopted (and can't - everything they do, they have to make sure it's compliant with the previous spec. As the first-gen HD-DVD players go into obsolescence, it binds the hands of the DVD Forum).

Worf

I hate to be the last one to comment on this, but I believe that only one of these formats will barely win and only for a short period of time. I honestly feel that digital media is moving more into portable and wireless media. I think that your flash cards, USB flash drives, small hard drives, computers, and wireless file sharing will squash DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and CD once and for all. Enough people will be downloading and swapping and sharing movies, music, games, and other applications on the internet and wirelessly over private networks as well. You will be able to walk around town and browse the P2P, Usenet, Bit-Torrent, or whatever website and download your media onto your portable players, then swap and share with others and back again at home and the office. This is the fear of RIAA, cellular companies that charge per data use, and anyone that wants to restrict data. The only way that movies and music artists will be able to make money is by advertising revenue and live performances. The market for physical media will be gone in 5 years. The days of buying movies or music in a store are numbered.

jesterthejedi

The "10 Free HD-DVD's!" deal like they have on Amazon was what sold me. I don't feel like I'm risking anything by picking a format now because of the way DVD's are upconverted. My DVD library won't be obsolete like VHS collections were, so I think people are more likely to go for cheap and accessible than they are for a clear "winner". Blu-Ray needs to get off the high horse and start fighting. Backing out of a debate isn't how to do that. The selling point isn't "Our format is marginally superior"... it has to be "HD is easy and more affordable than you thought, here's how we help you upgrade."

Consumers are going to decide the format war.

loadedthorn

I will stick with HD-DVD. Not only because I bought this $98 Toshiba HD-DVD and very happy with the quality, but also because I hate proprietary Sony politics and feel they will fail as they did with Beta, MD and UMD.

Still, I use professional Sony equipment and consider it the best. Their marketing politics is what I hate.

I am also planning to get PS3, so I can play PS3 games and use Blu-Ray in addition to my HD DVD. This way I will be covered no matter what the end of format war will be.

x86