Amazon is attempting to turn books into a service. It simply won't fly.

Aaron Martin-Colby

@draconis2941:
Free EVDO also means that they can constantly report back to the mothership, and cut you off if you're using hacks like that. And there's no guarantee that the low-level software like that is even modifiable.

ConstyXIV

Im with sony this time. Looks better, works better, give you a better reader experience (or they say so).

Now sony, give me a 50 dollar rebate (yeah yeah rebates are evil but i do remember to send it and 95% of the time I get the check) AND 1 or two free books and I will get one for xmas.... deal?

@MWillis561: very nice one. but not worth 350. Or at least I wont pay that much. $250 would be ideal.

dysthymia

I believe you can download the MobiPocket Creator (for free) and use it to put any of those file types on the Kindle for free. The 10c email-to-convert thing is a convenience feature if you're away from your PC, want to receive a document from someone else, or are otherwise just uninterested in hooking up the thing to transfer files over USB.

andrewl6097

@Noobs-R-Us:
Great, so people can put their own stuff on the Sony. But if I can't get the newest Stephen R. Donaldson book, it's useless to me; I don't want to *only* read the Gutenburg books and Shakespeare and classics. That's the big advantage - Amazon.com has the big publishers, and the hype to get more. And you *can* put PDF's and stuff on the Kindle, it just costs $.10 - I wouldn't be above paying a dime to get a PDF-format book on there.

A while back I tried using eBooks with my PDA - aside from the fact that reading books on a small, low-res, low-contrast screen sucks, there just wasn't much of a selection of what I wanted, and it took a while for new books to show up from series that they *did* have (like Stephen King's Dark Tower series). It's just not useful at all without publisher support.

Dreamwriter

I absolutely love the idea of these, but there's still a few nagging flaws.

After the price (if they came down to $200 I might be able to justify it, but no higher), the thing that still bugs me about them is the contrast. Now, I haven't actually seen one of these in person, but I've been looking at a lot of pictures lately, and I think I can safely say that the contrast on the epaper they're using is still just way too low.

If they can get the background a bit lighter, to the point of newsprint at least, I think I'd be more comfortable with it.

Improbable

Having a Reader makes me a little biased, but I must say without the support for PDF's and RTF and DOC, I would rarely use my Reader (granted I still buy novels and such through the store, but I read a lot of other content). As for the arguments that the e-ink displays aren't advanced enough, I would honestly say go to a store and actually use the device, I find it just as comfortable as reading a printed page. And the problem with the whole tablet argument is that an e-ink display would be HORRIBLE for anything beyond reading, the way the tech works makes it limited in scope, but perfect at what it is designed for.

goldaar

I'd love to get my girlfriend hooked on one of these. She reads 3-4 books a week. Many of them are one time reads. She reads them, then gets rid of them. I'd rather not have to deal with getting rid of the books and the packaging they came in. Also recently she went on a trip and got tagged by the airlines for being over the 50lb suitcase limit. Those 10lbs of books in the suitcase were the problem. And yes....she read them all.

Rand

Codex FTW.

nojo

Both products will fail because people are not ready to abandon paper, yet. Sure, if the perfect product were released, there would be some geeks (like us) that would pick it up, but until the non-gadget minded folks actually start saying 'boy, it would be nice to not have all this paper', this will not work. It is unfortunately, though, because I would love to see this catch on.

Monty

im sorry, maybe i am wrong, but in a time of the All-in-one wouldnt it make more sense putting the resources in developing this product towards a slim lined dumbed down tablet computer. Something you can take notes on, store books, files etc, and still be connect to the internet to receive your periodicals and what not. I know its the future, but it isnt that different from these products, except these fall short.

jesselaz1

@bandit: After the Kindle and Sony readers fail (because they both suck), the market will not go away. It's just that the technology, with woefully low-resolution screens compared to the printed page, is premature. Once screens advance a notch or two and people actually enjoy the experience of reading from one of these things, someone will step in to make one. A well-executed reader is inevitable, but this aint it.

frigg

Free EVDO...I wonder how long it will take this to get hacked to pass the connection to other devices via the USB port.

draconis2941

What about the new Cybook Ereader. Better format support then both and it's the same price as the ereader. No internet conectivity though.

MWillis561

The iRex iLiad still wins:

[www.irextechnologies.com]

A bit expensive, but extremely nice and easy to use.

jak312

It's a real shame if this fails due to the ugly factor or other stupid aspects (like 10 cent charge for viewing your own files). After the Sony Reader and this product fail, no one else will try it again. Unfortunate, because there actually is a spot in the market for a well-executed product of this kind.

bandit

I think this would be great for newspapers and magazines. I'd be more than happy to cancel my NY Times subscription and read this thing on the subway every day. Same with most magazines. But I think it would blow for books. Also, what's up with this "service" fee for viewing your own files or paying $1.00 per blog? That's ridiculous.

stanfrombrooklyn

Graphic should be corrected. The Kindle does have audio capabilities. It supports Audible and MP3.

Never hurts to check the official specs.
[www.amazon.com]

Chimaera

@Dreamwriter: many people have their own stuff they can put into open formats. For exmple, there are thousands of classic books like the stuff you read in high school that are available for download in open formats for free. Stuff like Great Expectations, 1984, Pride and Prejudice are all FREE!

Noobs-R-Us

the amazon kindle was a big letdown (imo), because of tha lack of pdfs, and stuff like that...

wandaa

@rainsfather: Actually, Sony also uses DRM but they will also let you use other open formats. kind of like Apple with their iPods.

Noobs-R-Us

"At least on paper..." lol oh the irony

YankeeFan

Who cares about open format, when no book publishers will go for open format? If I'm gonna get an eBook reader, I'm gonna get one I can, you know, find the books I want to read on it. And right now Amazon.com wins the day - just by making a big hype machine around the Kindle, they are convincing more publishers to go eBook. Looking at the list of currently available books for Kindle, they've made a great start.

As for the keyboard, sure it looks ugly...but an ugly keyboard is better than no keyboard at all.

Dreamwriter

am i the only one to find it ironic that the sony is the one with open standards and not locked with drm?

rainsfather

i think with sony's prolonged battery life thanks to that new fangled OLED or whatever the hell they call it, it's a sure fire winner. now if they made it accessible with some crazy google apps then the world will rejoice and everyone will forget about the PS# for a while.

DSaddict

@Buford T. Justice:
point taken.
I have yet to see a reader than can make for reading what the iPod did for listening music.
The PRS is actually not too bad (especially for demanding readers like you), but honestly it could be designed even simpler: the kindle is just one ugly thing.

gizGianca

Why in the HELL would I pay $0.10 to open my own files?

This isn't a useful device if I need to think twice about using it. Amazon should have been smarter about entering the eBook market - this could stigmatize their reputation similarly to Sony's loss to Apple's business model on avoiding annoying DRM regulations.

Would never pay $400 for this device - especially if it will burn a bigger hole in my wallet by utilizing it's basic features.

clovismcpony

I have a Sony Reader and love the display and it's jsut like reading a paperback except you don't have to hold the book open to read it.

I ordered a Kindle as soon as they were available today, since the wireless features are a really nice addition and Amazon has way more books available than Sony does.

The illustration at the top of the article is complete FUD. The Amazon unit does audio books and music just like the Sony. The PDF viewer in the Sony is complete crap, so having to convert PDFs into another format is not a big deal for me. It's not $0.10 to view your own files, just if you want to send them to the reader wirelessly. Plug it into a USB port (as you *have* to do with the Sony) and just drag and drop your files, pictures, music, etc. onto the device for free.

I looked through the Amazon store, and the book prices seem competitive with Sony's. Both services maintain your collection and allow re-downloading so there is no loss of purchased content if you lose the device. You can add multiple Kindles to your Amazon account, but it's not clear if all of them get access to all the stuff you've bought (Sony lets you authorize something like 5 or 6 reader devices for your account, which can be Sony Readers or PCs, etc.

There's always a danger that it wil flop and the service will go away, and clearly at $300-$400 neither of these devices will replace books any time soon. But reading on an e-ink display is soooo much nicer than any other disply technology.

Oh, and the person calling for backlighting should understand that no e-ink display can ever be backlit, any more than you can backlight a paperback book (and for the same reason).

Z.

Zoot

@gizGianca:

I'll trade your instant ability to flip through thousands of pages with not having to carry a book containing thousands of pages thousands of miles when I travel. Between work documents, pleasure reading and reference texts/dictionaries, I probably have 80 books and 50 docs on my Sony PRS. Put THAT in your carry-on and smoke it. For people who don't read in a linear fashion (many I know are reading two or three books interchangeably) it's a huge boon.

Buford T. Justice

the kindle is truly ugly. wouldn't it make sense to reduce such a device as much as possible, until you have only the display left? i'd also prefer a thin and light device to read a book rather than this kindle-monster. btw: kindle sounds like the old-german version of kind/child! so what does this ugly monster device have to do with a child??? confusing.

Bodypainter

Kindle for $200 w/out the connectivity and I'm sold. Give me the ability to convert via a PC app and connect via USB and we're golden. This $400 with the "free" EVDO connection is way too much.

DRoberts

Guys, RTFM. It has better format support than the Sony (which I have). PDF support is easy. You convert from PDF to Mobipocket and that works fine. Amazon also converts documents to AZW (Kindle format) free to a non-reader Email addy. So you can use DOC files that way. I have the feeling someone will come up with converters for PDF, DOC, etc, so you don't have Amazon handling your docs. Here's the list of docs the Sony supports.

TXT / RTF / PDF (Unencrypted) / BBeB (Encrypted and Unencrypted) / JPEG / GIF / BMP / PNG / MP3 (Unencrypted) / AAC (Unencrypted)

Sorry, not much more than the Kindle and I'll trade those for the EVDO functionality and the killer pricing. Sony's pricing ain't exactly a bargain!

The Kindle also supports Audible so I can load up with O&A and Dave Barry and have it all in one. :D

You guys want freedom and open source? Go get a iLiad or Bookeen. For those of us who just want ease of use, and the ability to buy books on the go, this thing will be freakin' AWESOME! Aside from that, I'm thrilled with Amazon's service and would rather support them than Sony.

Buford T. Justice

Bezos is one hell of a smart guy, or at least that's what I felt till I saw this ugly thing.
Jesus, u r totally right in your comment that "If Jeff Bezos wants this to be the iPod of books, he better hire John Ive." Or a designer at all.
I read books: last time I checked I enjoy reading them because I can instantaneously flip pages in a form factor which has been working fine for THOUSANDS years and counting.
Gimme something as simple and as easy to read as a book, and that can read without having to check an account online, and I'll buy it.
Oh yeah and never mind one of the best quality of a book: once I buy it it's MINE. I can lend them to anyone, resell them, fotocopy them for research and scholastic work, all without any DRM.

gizGianca

Where's my "still waiting for someone to make a $50 ebook reader with a good-enough LCD screen and waterproofing so I can read in the tub" poll option?

Hunty

For ebook reading, I think the Sony wins, but the killer app for me is the downloading of daily content like the New York Times. It's like $170 a year for the download, compared to $400/year at the newsstand. The convenience of it practically obligates me to buy one, but it's too damn ugly!

weatherman

I've been watching the sony reader and waiting for it to drop to the magical $200 price point.

It would be great for carrying around PDFs of reference manuals and the like.

lordargent

@Dreamwriter: The dozen or so eBooks I currently own are watermarked PDFs with no DRM, so open format matters to me (not that I'm interested in a dedicated reader device).

sumocat

it's sad when the newly unveiled kindle is losing in a poll to...

"Screw eBooks! I want to keep killing trees and transmit bacterias to other people."

i think this survey should be forwarded to amazon

reality.check

At the right price, not $400, I'd like to have one. First stop is Project Gutenberg and the TXT or HTML files of all the Tom Swift books! There are plenty of free ebooks available in formats this will support. And to pocket my whole library would be a boon to my family for the same reasons given by RAND above.

balloondoggle

Paying for RSS feeds and blogs seems pretty stupid when browsing the web is free on that thing. I don't think the kindle will kill the sony yet.. but looks pretty grim if sony doesn't do something quick to expand their library. Evdo really should have been optional on the kindle. I've got my treo to browse the web and read emails.

chueychihuahua

I don't care about the ugly factor. I love the idea of having magazine and newspapers. The price is a bit high. But I would pay it in a minute if I didn't have to pay to put my own documents on my device. I currently read my eBooks with my Sony Clie Palm device with iSilo. I love the autoscroll feature. I realize this isn't possible with the eInk, but it's really nice to set the scroll and prop the Clie on the exercise bike to read while exercising.

The only thing holding me back from buying the Kindle though is the fee for my existing documents..

cskaryd

oh did I mention that the Kindle is F ugly! If I bring that to bed, my gf wont touch me for a while. Not happening.

dysthymia

Poll was lame. Try harder next time.

ashwinmudigonda

One thing to note is that students now use a lot of .pdfs. We are a large portion of the reading populous so if one of these companies could make a deal with a big school and promote it as going green it might be a good start at PR.

Pegleg Joe

i just don't like the turn page tabs... too much mechanic.

AndersonBMX

Chaps, we've updated to graphic over at Wired to remove dastardly lies and unfair comparisons.

BESCHIZZA

@pmhesse: No. No. NO. NO NO NO NO JESUS EFFING CHRIST NO!.

For the last effing time:

CONVERTING DOCUMENTS IS ****FREE**** so long as you ****DO NOT**** send the document ****DIRECTLY**** to the device! The charge ONLY APPLIES when you send it wirelessly.

Buford T. Justice

The Sony offering has the definite advantage of not having been brutally raped with the fugly stick.

Neither one at this point has the sort of full .pdf support I really need. I get all kinds of crap in weird scanned formats with pages skewed and lopsided that I'd like to load without having to go through some messy conversion process. Load one with a full version of Acrobat and we'll talk.

otaking241

I vote for open standards, but unfortunately the Sony Reader is made by... Sony. So I'll wait till it's made by a company I'm willing to give my money to.

JeffCarr

@Chimaera: Yes, I agree, the graphic needs to be updated. The Kindle does support audio including MP3 and audible. And, the statement "On the other side, PDF, RTF and DOCs are all out of the question with Kindle" is completely false too. You can use these formats as long as you mail them to your Kindle account and have them converted for $0.10/document.

I have a hard time getting worked up about the closed format because it's running on a closed network (whispernet) with no service charges. That is the price you pay for what you are getting.

pmhesse

@glipz: Wikipedia access will lend itself to other access... this thing will get modded and hacked 10 ways from Sunday. I'd bet on native PDF/whatever conversion within a month as well.

Buford T. Justice

Personally, my Nokia n800 with fbreader is all the ebook reader I need. Oh did I mention it also plays mp3s and surfs the web and plays doom. And it also cost $400.

microe

People love to complain, but I think amazon has created an incredible product. Sure you can get books free on various sites and in pdf format. I can also get books free at the library, I lived next to one for the last year, but I still found myself browsing and buying books at Borders. Why? Because honestly its fun to buy stuff. I like being able to get whatever I want without having to search for it. If theres any major fault its how easy they will probably make it to buy stuff. There is a complaint about the keyboard, but how else do you expect to search and find stuff?

And how can you not be impressed by the relatively free connection. How much do you pay to have a cell phone with any kind of web access? Sure you can only use the wireless to buy stuff and read wikipedia. But hey wait a min, wikipedia is awesome, i could probably just read that forever. So its a $400 encylopedia in 10oz thats pretty cool.

glipz

I voted to kill trees, unfortunately. As a science grad student, the biggest category of electronic documents I read is PDFs of research papers, and those have graphs and stuff you have to squint at even at 100% size. Maybe when they make an A4/letter size ebook reader...

Xenobiologista

@Dreamwriter: Yea, small screens of PDAs sucks. This is much better. I you get to play with an e-ink device like the Sony, you would know what a difference it makes.

Also, Sony has a lot of publisher support. Not as many as Amazon but still significant, something like 20-30K.

[ebooks.connect.com]

Noobs-R-Us

Who's Providing the EV-DO? (cell Towers?)

I do like the Sony's stile better but amazon looks good for a first.?

DJJS

Sony wins in looks by a long shot. Also no charge on services is nice.

However, amazon has internet access, which is pretty cool.

Verdict: Until i find out more about the kindles internet access, sony all the way.

tin

Amazon has sold out of their first batch of Kindles it looks like. The side says they'll have more available in a couple days.

Z.

Zoot

What the fuck? FOUR HUNDRED?! Back when rumors were going around about this thing, they were talking $99, which was a very significant leg up over the $300 Sony reader. Now it comes out and it's not only more expensive than Sony's toy, but it's covered in surcharges for its features? Screw that.

Valatar

i dont think any electronic replacement for the book will ever get off the ground, for one reason: books NEVER run out of battery.

arrgh406

I'm not surprised the blog and RSS costs a buck each - they are not charging you for EVDO service so they have to make up data usage costs somehow.

Also don't think that the Kindle's closed nature will necessarily make it a loser - the iPod was always a more closed format than the other MP3 players, but it did better, a big reason being that the music labels bought into iTunes and only the iPod supported iTunes. That, plus Apple's big name launched the iPod into huge popularity.

In the end, it's all about CONTENT, especially when it comes to books. People already know what they want to read, so whatever e-book they choose, they expect their favorite books to be available.

But, until this thing gets a LOT cheaper, it will be a niche product. Only gadget lovers will get this now. The rest of us will wait. Especially serious book lovers, who are probably the best market for these readers, but unfortunately for Amazon, those folks are more endered to real paper books than anyone else.

redman042

From the Review ..."Can you transfer documents straight to the device? In our testing, we only got MP3s to show up when we transferred them via USB. PDFs, RTFs, and JPEGs did not appear when we copied them to the Documents folder on the Kindle. But according to the online manual, you should be able to transfer any Kindle-compatiable file via USB."

fruguido

The obsession over PDF compatbility is fairly hilarious. The Kindle is not a PDA. It's a book reader that also allows you to subscribe to newspapers, magazines, and blogs. The chart here is also messed up. Yes, the Kindle charges for blogs, but those are updated automatically. Unless I misunderstand the Sony Reader, you have to reconnect to your PC to update any blogs you have on there.

All of the charges on the Kindle for blogs are for the data fees Amazon will be paying Sprint for EVDO access. Hence the major reason why the device is $400.

Having used one I can say it's not quite as ugly in person. The keyboard layout is a little strange, but it's thin, the battery works forever, and reading is very easy. I can't believe that reading an ebook on a small PDA screen can compare.

cb7296

Tablet PCs. NO! You haven't seen an e-ink display. It's very close to reading paper which is a huge advantage if you're actually reading a long book rather than just surfing the web. Tablet PC/PDA/Phone advocates, IMO, always miss this point. An e-ink based book is a *book*, it, in theory, has the feel of reading a book, not reading your phone.
And all those other displays positively devour power. A Sony reader will last for *weeks* without recharge if you're just reading books on it.

Open? The Sony has DRM. It also has open formats. The Kindle has DRM. It also has open formats. I don't see the big difference.

PDF is the only thing missing (Adobe wanted too much for licensing?). Unless your PDF reflows (reflow doesn't work on the Sony) its going to look horrible on a small reader screen anyway. I never use PDF on my Sony, it's too much trouble.

Now if the Kindle *really* won't let you load your own books over USB if you want to, then that's terrible. I know $.10 is small, but it could add up fast if you're throwing pages over one at a time for some reason. But it doesn't seem likely that its really locked out. I could be wrong, of course. This is top of my "want to know" list. And if you can load your own books, it's another toss-up.

Any management software can't be worse than the Sony software. It's horrible beyond description.

And that, admittedly silly-looking, keyboard is a huge advantage. You do know you can't search on the Sony, right?

Sony's books usually cost *more* than the paper versions. Sometimes a lot more if they forget to lower the price when the paperback comes out. Did you know that? The Sony ebook store is a half-assed afterthought. Using my crystal ball, I just *know* Amazon will do better. They can't do worse.

ficta

Two more examples of how crappy and expensive ebooks are. Save your cash. I'm sure that these readers will go the way of the REB 1200 and Rocket eBook (my last two eReaders).

maxpeck1

HOOOOLD ON! The Sony is not really open format. It only reads Sony's proprietary BBeB format for eBooks. This format is only avaialble from Sony's Connect eBook store. It can display PDF and other non-eBook formats as well. However, I find PDF docs dificult to read on mine.

Now don't get me wrong. I love my Sony eReader. It comes in quite handy while traveling (it also is a great conversation starter) and while reading in bed (no pages to turn unlike the combersome traditional format). I just don't want people thining it is perfect.

BTW, the display is awsome.

mdelprin

Sony only has USB connectivity, correct? Does anyone know if the Kindle will allow you to turn off EVDO? If not then anyone who flies should keep in mind that airlines may make you turn off your eBook during flights. Since flying is one of the best places to use an eBook (lighter than carrying books) both companies and consumers should keep it in mind.

Better yet would be airlines allowing WiFi on planes but I'm not recommending anyone hold their breath...

rk260395

Definitly the Sony reader for me. I like the open standards, cheaper price. To my eyes the Sony has a nicer, crisper screen as well. I am hoping to get an eReader soon, so I was semi excited to check out the amazon. I was dissapointed in there approach.

DOmeN

I too had a Rocket Ebook, and I have a Sony now. Like Amazon, Rocket told me that they would maintain my library for me online forever. Granted, Amazon has a likelihood of a longer forever than did Rocket...but still, them ol' Rocket files are gone phhht! I like to be in possession of the files I have paid for (DRM'd to the hilt though they may be). Just a prejudice, of course.

himself

it's hard to believe that its the sony device that supports open standards. what is this world coming to?

Milkham

so my question is, can the sony reader read kindle books? even though the kindle is butt ugly, the amount of books that are available for it makes me tempted over Sony...

ca911

@arrgh406:

I don't think any electronic replacement for handwritten mail will ever get off the ground, for one reason: pen-and-paper NEVER run out of battery.

I don't think digital imaging will ever get off the ground, for one reason: film NEVER runs out of battery.

I don't think electric vehicles will ever get off the ground, for one reason: horses NEVER run out of battery.

I don't think the home stereo will ever get off the ground, for one reason: a hand-cranked gramophone NEVER runs out of battery.

I don't think the calculator will ever get off the ground, for one reason: an abacus NEVER runs out of battery.

(...and so on...)

That is to say, minus my sarcasm, that more probable reasons are required - as have perhaps been provided by others - than your singular "books NEVER run out of batteries". For a significant variety of uses, battery-dependence is not a problem. When it is, it's possibly a reason for *some* people not buying them, but those "some people" are not the entire market of people available. Pen-and-paper, film, horses, old gramophones & abacus are still used by "some people", and good on 'em, but it never got in the way of the other, battery-defendant markets.

...except for the electric car, which we all know is being held back by the Stonecutters]

montsnmags

@microe: actually, your n800 now costs $225. But I get your point. Doesn't the n800 also have an auto-download RSS reader that syncs whenever it finds a WiFi connection?

weatherman

The fact that my 300 or so Baen ebooks can be directly loaded onto the Kindle in MOBI reader format instead of having to either use MS Word to fix the RTF version (which doesn't look good on the reader unless you make some global changes to the document font size and page size) or use a 3rd party software to convert the LIT to MOBI format (which I haven't tried yet) means I am seriously considering getting this even though I already have a Sony Reader. That's the biggest draw in my opinion, the kindle is ready to read baen books with no hassle.

Baladen

The fees for RSS and blogs are for downloading in realtime over EV-DO, the $0.10 fee for personal documents is also for the EV-DO transfer. The purchased books include the transfer fee in the price.
You don't actually HAVE to pay surcharges for the device. You could decide to never buy a Kindle book from amazon. And never buy a subscription. You could convert your personal documents and have them sent back to your amazon.com email address on record for free simply by sending the documents to kindlename@free.kindle.com instead of kindlename@kindle.com (which sends the converted documents wirelessly ditrect to your kindle with the fee).

Further, if you're a sci-fi/fantasy fan, Baen books ebooks have a DRM-free mobipocket version that can be downloaded and dragged right into the kindle's Documents folder when it's plugged into your PC or Mac (Sony doesn't even support macs).

Finally, the wireless can be turned off for airplane use or if you just want to get the same battery life the Sony reader has.

Baladen