@luckypictures: I started with a really long, mean, scathing comment and it made me feel like a dick, so I'm going to restrain myself. In summary:

STOP. JUST STOP. PLEASE FOR GOD'S SAKE STOP. FOR ALL OF US.

WorkingOnYourInvoice

@Marty_MacFly: you said everything i wanted to say. damn you.

jcy

@Dearhaw: You're lucky then. It's relatively scratch resistant, yes, but being that it is glass, it can still be easily broken, and if it breaks, there is a very high cost of replacement.

Also, here's another point to debate, is an iPhone still a great product without being hacked?

luckypictures

@Dearhaw: His argument about skipping tracks was more valid than storage space. Storage space is a matter of NEED vs WANT.

luckypictures

@leemajors:

Yeah, I gotta agree with you there. I've dropped my iPhone from pocket height to concrete... twice (yeah, I've been drunk before), and it suffered nothing more than a minor dent in the corner. I don't have a case for it, or a shield for the screen. I throw it in my front jeans pocket all the time with loose change, although I tried to keep my keys away from it, and hardly any scratches. I take it jogging all the time, too.

And the argument about being able to skip songs is a valid one, although I do use the supplied Apple headphones for this purpose (also, I can't plug in my Sony earbuds because of that stupid headphone jack). Hopefully 3rd parties will start putting out compatible headphones with that ability built-in.

In the mean time, I don't think it'll qualify for the iPhone being inherently flawed, when the problem can easily be solved by, for example, a firmware update that will add the functionality of skipping tracks (either forward or backward) by double clicking the volume buttons.

Dearhaw

@luckypictures: Explain why it's done, instead of just flaming.

luckypictures

@leemajors: So I'm wrong? There wasn't a big bruhaha about the nano's breaking? Please, take your iPhone, drop it from your ear, as if you were talking on it, and tell me how it fares.
I'll do it with my Zune, and an older gen iPod. In fact, I'll do it a few times.
Can you do that with your iPhone? Can you put it in your pocket and not have to worry about the screen?

luckypictures

@omg-ponies:

"That makes it a mediocre iPod."

No, that makes it a mediocre iPod for YOU. Unless you are ready to come out and say that any music player with less than 80GB of storage, including the iPhone, iPod touch, iPod nano, iPod shuffle, Zune 4GB, Zune 8GB, and all the other flash based players, is mediocre (and not merely "not appropriate for my purposes"), you aren't even internally consistent. Either you just say "the iPod in the iPhone is not for me" OR you say "all current flash based music players are mediocre". And even then, a lot of people will disagree with you, but at least be consistent.

Dearhaw

@luckypictures: "That being said, the iPhone is a shitty product, period. Not because of software, not because of storage space, but because it must be babied. You've got a very large GLASS screen that risks being shattered. Half of the device is suspect to damage. The replacement cost is very high. It's not a rugged gadget. I would not take it jogging, despite there being armbands for that purpose. Just like the last generation iPods, it's too susceptible to being broken in one's pocket, or purse, or bag."
this may get dumb comment of the year.

leemajors

@mullingitover: Does the iPhone presently have 160 GB of storage space? Does the Touch? No, they do not.

In its current incarnation, the iPhone does not satisfy my needs as an iPod replacement. When the iPhone can hold my library of music (i.e. - when it has enough storage space for all of my music which my current iPod does), it will cease to fail.

Various people have various listening habits - which is why Apple has a variety of iPod models. As an iPod replacement, the iPhone does not fit the bill for a jukebox listener.

omg-ponies

@luckypictures: And before anyone argues, there is a difference between NEED and WANT, as demonstrated by omg-ponies's post.

luckypictures

@Marty_MacFly: I disagree with your assumption that my listening habits/iPod style is somehow abnormal. Apple disagrees with you too, which is why Apple made an iPod that is able to hold over 1,000 albums. Wired also disagrees with you. Leander Keahney wrote extensively about the joy of rediscovering music through shuffle when an entire library of music is loaded.

I do agree with your assertion that 2GB of music is a measly collection; at 192 Kbps, that is about 20 albums. I, along with many Gen Xers, have 20 years' worth of CDs and, given the low cost of drive space, see no reason why that music should not be listened to.

As a long time iPod user, I like having my music with me at all times. There is the serendipity of Shuffle, where I may listen to a Beatles song, then a Metallica song, followed by a Grateful Dead jam session, and then topped off by Duke Ellington. I might hear a song that I literally have not heard in 15 years. There's also the added benefit of having what amounts to commercial-free radio without paying a subscription.

Additionally, if my partner is shouting at someone in his office on speakerphone (which I can hear quite clearly), I may want to be able to listen to Louis Armstrong or a Glass symphony. If I have a rough day, I can put on the Aggrolites for the train ride home.

I hate being hedged in by having to select 25 albums and then having to resync to get new music. My listening style involves having over a 1,000 albums with me at any given time.

So yes, for my purposes, the Zune 4 & 8 are not appropriate. Similarly, the nano is also inapt for general use, although I have a 2G specifically for the gym (drive players are not good in the gym).

Finally, I don't want to relearn the wheel, so to speak. I know my way around the Click Wheel by touch without having to remove it from my pocket. The inability to navigate the iPod look-free limits the iPhone's appeal to me as far as it's capabilities as an iPod are concerned.

This is what I look for in an iPod. The iPhone does not deliver the crucial piece of functionality of storage because it has to compromise the storage space. That makes it a mediocre iPod.

omg-ponies

@mullingitover: DIAMOND RIO BABY!

luckypictures

@Ion_Predator: That is a good point about the headphones. Why spend several hundred dollars on a gadget, to use $2 headphones. It makes no sense. Earbuds in general are pieces of shit, let alone ones that come with a gadget. Sorry, but when I listen to music, I want to be able to at least come close to what it's supposed to sound like, and the headphones with the skip track feature, and ibuds, just don't come anywhere near close to cutting it.

luckypictures

@Marty_MacFly: I have to agree and argue at the same time. There is NO need to have any more than 8GB with a person at one time. Movies can take up a lot more space though, and so 80GB would be worth it. A large amount of storage is only truly useful if everything is lossless, you have movies, or you take long long trips away from your computer, which just isn't most people.
How spoiled are you if you require 80GB of music to be with you at all times, because you want to have a large selection? People don't have their priorities straight, to be honest.
That being said, the iPhone is a shitty product, period. Not because of software, not because of storage space, but because it must be babied. You've got a very large GLASS screen that risks being shattered. Half of the device is suspect to damage. The replacement cost is very high. It's not a rugged gadget. I would not take it jogging, despite there being armbands for that purpose. Just like the last generation iPods, it's too susceptible to being broken in one's pocket, or purse, or bag. In my opinion, that's what makes it a shitty gadget. You have to treat it with kid gloves. The Zune30 is a tank, and the older generations of iPods? Hell, one stopped a bullet in Iraq. Those two devices are rugged, and are better gadgets in my mind.

And on a side note, no comments about a clock or games. Wear a watch, and grow the fuck up, it's not the end of the world.

luckypictures

OMG-PONIES: "The iPhone is, in fact, a mediocre iPod because it simply doesn't have the storage space."

This is a great point.

It's great because it'll fall over so easily. You can bet your pants that sooner or later (and probably sooner) that 160gb 1.8 inch drive in the iPod Classic is going to make it into an iPod Touch, and maybe eventually a phone. It's all a matter of balancing battery life with screen size.

Meanwhile, it's not a big deal for the iPhone to have "small" storage. 8 gb is still enough music to keep you entertained on a cross-continent road trip or two.

Whippersnappers... I still remember being impressed with my friend's 64 *MB* mp3 player...

mullingitover

@Marty_Macfly:

The first thing that anybody should do when they purchase any iPod product is take the headphones Apple includes, destroy them, and send them into oblivion. There's no denying that they are absolute crap. And as someone whose had 3 iPods, I should know. If Apple actually included quality headphones, then I'd give you that point. But the fact is, even if the skip-track feature is available in the headphones, then it doesn't even matter if the headphones won't be used.

While I agree that people bought the iPhone primarily because it was the latest and greatest iPod (that, and the fact it's a phone, making it seem like one helluvah overall device, but the iPod aspect made the initial appeal), the skip-track argument is pretty valid if you ask me.

Ion_Predator

This is what I was talking about the other day about how Microsoft needs more than a cool looking gadget... they need new blood with new philosophy- and that seems to be what J. Allard is trying to deliver. I don't think he's spreading a lie by trying to speak smartly and hedge people to a positive thought about his product- everyone does it.. it's called marketing spin. My wish is to have more J. Allards out there to compete against apple so that the next apple product I buy is that much better than the last one.

sangarts2

@omg-ponies: "The iPhone is, in fact, a mediocre iPod because it simply doesn't have the storage space."

Does that mean the Zune 4 and 8 are, in fact, mediocre mp3 players because they simply don't have the storage space? Is the iPod nano any less of an iPod because of its storage capacities?

That is only one aspect of DAPs and PMPs. Your claim is preposterous. I'm sorry that you need to have 80gb of music with you at all times but for those of us normal people who are alright with a measly 2gb of music and a couple of movies and TV shows, we manage just fine.

Marty_MacFly

@nakmario: the iPod in the iPhone doesn't take much battery - it's watching videos and surfing that can chew battery life. if i just listen to music on mine for 6-8 hours a day and make calls, it can last over two days. heavy internet use, even outside of wifi browsing, can slice that in half.

leemajors

@omg-ponies:
To add to your point; who wants to listen to music on their phone anyways? Battery technology needs to improve in order for that to happen, otherwise you have a music player that you cant really listen to THAT MUCH because you will have to balance the need/desire that you have to listen to music and the need/desire to have enough juice on your phone to actually make calls. (Sorry for the run-on sentence)

nakmario

"so you can watch what you want, where you want, how you want."

I guess he never got the memo from Balmer.

lucky_you

@Marty_MacFly: Sorry. I'm going to side with the driving force behind the XBox and XBox Live on this one.

The iPhone is, in fact, a mediocre iPod because it simply doesn't have the storage space. I've re-ripped my music at 192 Kbps because my iPod can hold all my music at that bitrate (80+ GB of music). I see no reason to keep a separate "iPhone" copy of the same music that takes up less space.

Third-party applications promise to limit the iPhone's functionality as an iPod with every app added to the iPhone (after a certain point, you don't have room for music). It's just simpler to expand the app ability of the iPhone (call it the Newton 2.0 - the one that works) by not using the iPod capability and instead having added space for apps.

If I want an iPod, I'll buy an iPod, not a phone with iPod capabilities. It's why I never buy music phones. When my phone contract is up, I'll get an iPhone because I want the phone and applications - not because I want to listen to music with my phone.

omg-ponies

Lifestyle Receptacle.

WorkingOnYourInvoice

@WorkingOnYourInvoice: My thought exactly. "Experience Locker," "Content Container," or "Emotion Enclosure," please.

Mobius

"The iPhone is a great product, but not because it is a music player.

People are buying it because it's an Apple phone, not because it's an iPod. It's a lousy iPod. You can't skip a track without looking at it. You can't go running with the thing. It is the first consumer product that has done browsing [on a cellphone] extremely well."

I see J. Allard is still spreading that bullshit lie.

You skip a track by clicking the button attached to the right earphone cord twice, Mr. Allard. Perhaps you should try the product first, maybe do a little research? And how the hell can you tell me that I can't go running with it when there are several armbands on the market for that very purpose?

The entire argument is absurd. Nobody bought the iPhone for its amazing capabilities as an iPod? LOL! Many people in fact did and the demand for that portion of the iPhone was so great that it led to the creation of the iPod touch.

Marty_MacFly

Cultural Cache?!! Who comes up with this shit??

WorkingOnYourInvoice

People bash J Allard all the time, but he is a great guy. It's great to see someone in his position speak so freely, instead of beating around the bush like many execs do.

AlexNC

If at first you don't succeed, try try again. If you don't succeed:

- you're doing it wrong; that doesn't go in there

- you are probably in the wrong business

- you may have a problem with your short-term memory

- stalk your competition and beat them within an inch of their life with a lead pipe in a dark alley. Tell them you'll finish the job if they don't pay

omg-ponies

"To the primitive mind, new technology is usually regarded as magic"

Kaiser-Machead

@luckypictures: first gen nano runs from the manufacturer did have a defect in the screen that caused them to crack. it was corrected quickly, but Apple extended the courtesy through the 2nd gen giving the customer the benefit of the doubt. are you saying optical quality glass shatters easily? just pipe down if you have no idea what you are talking about. and yes, the iPhone is a great product. best gadget i have ever had by far, hacked or not. if you are generating enough force/impact to break that glass, you deserve to pay to have it fixed. buy it with a platinum mastercard/AMEX or get it insured if you slam your shit around on sharp corners.

leemajors

@luckypictures: SO then we agree to disagree. I can live with that. I think everyone reading this could learn a lesson.

*cue coke music*

*cue images of zune fanboys holding hands with iphone fanboys swaying in harmony*

*cue announcer: "Isn't it about time everyone be allowed to enjoy their own preferred music player without it having to be a huge debate?"*

*cue spinning newspaper, headline reading: "PMP WAR OVER!"*

/deep, meaningful, therapeutic tears all around

... OK so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here...

WorkingOnYourInvoice

@luckypictures: You need to chill on the Apple blasphemy. Are you being paid by the Zune Marketplace in subscriptions or something?

ImTheKing

@luckypictures: i understand you try to slam the iPhone whenever possible. i understand it's nearly impossible to damage optical glass unless you are really stupid, or trying to break it. what else do i need to understand?

leemajors

@WorkingOnYourInvoice: That was very big of you, and instead, you made a funny comment.

well, if you want to get down to it, as far as optical quality glass, do you undertand the ratings? The iPhone has a rating of 1, the new Zune, 4. It has the lowest possible hardness for optical quality glass, so no, I don't trust it.

and again, it all comes down to individual experience. it seems you have found your product, and are happy with it. but, we all have our own opinons and needs, and for me, i don't think it's a good product.

that being said,
[cgi.ebay.com]

luckypictures

@leemajors: It's not that hard to damage optical glass with a strenth of 1.

@ImTheKing: I don't always blast Apple. I have a first and second gen shuffle. If I had the money to waste, I'd have an iMod. But I don't like the iPhone.

@WorkingOnYourInvoice: If i could teach the world to sing.........

luckypictures

@Dearhaw: Just got back from drinking. Scroll up. I did say that.

I think you miss my point. As an iPod replacement (i.e. - no need for a separate iPod to carry all music), the iPhone is not there yet. It is possible for something to be good and not be perfect. This too is Allard's point. It is not the same as saying "Apple sux" or "iPhone sux". It says that the iPhone is a jack-of-all-trades and, therefore, at this point, a master of none. I think if you read what I wrote, you'll find that I never even said that the iPhone will never be an iPod replacement. Just that it's not there yet.

Defensiveness (especially when one has no personal stake in the matter) serves no purpose if it's not needed.

omg-ponies

I'm not going to get into the iphone argument, it's rarely worth it anymore since most people seem to have formed unflinching opinions years ago.

So...

I like how in the photo the Zune logo looks like a funny little hat on Allard's shiny head.

Tyler