@omg-ponies:

Actually, if space and aesthetics are not issues for you; CRT HDTV's still offer the best picture out there... BY FAR. I'd just never be able to fit a 57" CRT in my living room so DLP is the next best bet. LCD's look lovely hanging on your wall.... until you turn it on and try to watch something with a lot of action. The motion blur will make you motion sick. Hopefully when the 120hz tv's start coming out...... that will fix the motion blur problem.

robinandtami

@onlysublime: A/S/L?

omg-ponies

@ceilingFANBOY: I started there, but you will note I modified it for this particular discussion. That is the type of quality post I try to provide. :)

fastm3driver

Wow, this is like a chat room. the same 4 guys back and forth...

everyone regurgitating FUD from both sides...

onlysublime

There's a format war?

ph0sph0ruz

@jutman: Wal-Mart is not selling the players for $99. They were selling the players for $99. This was part of a special deal because Wal-Mart's holiday strategy that they started last year is to have secret sales leading up to Black Friday so that they can get a head start on the competition. Also, now that they no longer have layaway, this is a way for the shoppers to spread out their purchases over time rather than trying to grab everything at once. As for the K-Mart deal, they has denied the rumor.

ceilingFANBOY

@jutman: I don't know how the royalties work completely, but the HD-DVD format is owned by the DVD Forum, not Toshiba Specifically.

While Toshiba is one of the big driving forces behind it, they're not as much of a leader on it as Sony is for Blue Ray, at least from what I understand.

Mourge

Since Wal-mart is selling the palyers for $99 and K-Mart is selling only HD-DVD i think i can safely assume that they have a lock on the market now.

With the only option for a Blue-Ray is either a $300 - $400 player or PS3 @ $399 Sony is pricing itself out of the market. Regardless of if the Blue-Ray is superior ( i.e. Beta vs. VHS ). This is the same battle they lost before.

Toshiba is selling their player for a $400 - $500 loss BUT if they completely loose the HD vs. BR battle they stand to loose a LOT more. They are the marketing pros here. Drop 1 M players on the market to crush Blue-Ray then bump the price back up after the fact. If they hold the partent on the HD technology then every player sold after blue-ray is dead will net them $20 - $30 per player? Over the next 10 years and 500 M players later they will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Another perfect example of how Sony lacks vision in marcketing even though they clearly excel at technology.

jutman

@arkowi: Isn't it beautiful? :-)

Unfortunately, I get the sneaking dark suspicion that this is precisely why Disney went directly for Blue Ray.

I'd lulled myself into a false sense of security by buying like 10 HD-DVD's, then I picked up 'The Prestige'.

That stupid "You wouldn't steal a car..." commercial just bugs the hell out of me.

Mourge

@fastm3driver: So, did you copy and paste this into Engadget or was it the other way around?

Anyway, there probably was some sort of subsidizing going on between Toshiba and Wal-Mart considering there was a very calculated amount of the players purchased for each store and it was a limited number of players. Best Buy may not have had any deals with Toshiba seeing as their sale was a reaction to Wal-Mart's, but it wouldn't be surprising if there was even for them. Wal-Mart probably still lost money, nonetheless, but it probably wasn't as much as they would have lost if these were units that they had sitting on their shelves for months and then tried to get rid of.

ceilingFANBOY

@Mourge: it's all good. like i said, wikipedia isn't the end-all-be-all of information.

GO HD DVD!

sorry...

gibson424

@Mourge:

I didn't know that no previews/no ads was part of the spec.

My wife and I just watched a movie on our new A2 earlier, and actually commented on how nice it was that there were no previews/ads...just straight to the menu.

arkowi

@gibson424: Hey, fair enough :-)
I didn't read the article you linked... 'cause I'm a lazy bastard that way, so I honestly don't know for sure if they had a prototype earlier or not. The source for my information was from chatting with an alumnus from my Fraternity that runs an optical disc manufacturing company, so I don't have a link to cite either.

Mourge

@KNAPPOLEON:

You are an idiot. HD DVD doesn't "fudge" any numbers. It is widely accepted that the PS3 shouldn't count towards stand-alone player numbers. In fact, only 40% of PS3 owners are even aware that it plays Blu-ray movies. And only a fraction of those people actually buy movies in the Blu-ray format.

The attachment rate (movie/player) is much higher for HD DVD which is why 90k players sold in one weekend (before black Friday even) is really bad news for Blu-ray.

jm9843

@Mourge: Once again, the question was which was first. According to the Wikipedia article on Bluray, which I linked to, a variation of Bluray was developed before HD DVD. It's not irrelevant to the discussion since that was the question that was posed.

I own an HD DVD player. I am hoping that HD DVD wins this whole thing, so please don't mistake me for some bluray preaching fanboy.

Don't shoot the messenger. and if that article is mistaken, then by all means, go correct it and I apologize for my misinformation.

gibson424

Why 1080i output doesn't matter versus 1080p for 99% of HD DVDs:

The HD-A2 outputs 1080i at 60 frames per second (1080i/60), which carries IDENTICAL information as the 1080p/24 content on the disc (or 1080p/30 if it's video-based). The resolution is IDENTICAL at 1920x1080, the only difference is that the TV reassembles the interlaced frames back into 1080p. Most 1080p TVs should do this just fine.

jm9843

I think its sad the HD DVD fan boyz (wrist wave) love to fudge the numbers on thier precious format war by not taking in account of the PS3 players. So sad. So sad.

Like you get a prize for your format or somethin?

knappoleon

It really is sad that Blu-ray supporters resort to lieing about HD DVD to prop up their format of choice.

And why blogs are reporting the best weekend for any high definition player (HD DVD or Blu-ray) since launch as a negative thing, would only seem to point to a Sony bias.

jm9843

@gibson424: The physical disc format for Blue Ray was first, but the "HD-DVD Standard" came along earlier. So your instistance on "Blue Ray was first" it technically true, but in a way that is essentially irrelevant to the discussion.

I'll fully admit that I'm a fan of HD-DVD over Blue-ray as a video format. I have players for both, and media for both, but will make a point of buying things in HD-DVD over Blue Ray whenever possible. I'll even admit that Blue Ray is a better format for data storage, and the technical merits of the physical disc standard are better than those for HD-DVD.

But here are my reasons for being a fan of HD-DVD (if you care to keep reading this wall-of-text). the HD-DVD standard was developed by the same people that made the original DVD Spec. By extending the DVD spec in the way that they did, they allowed manufacturers to quickly upgrade their equipment and be able to crank out new content with a lower capital investment. Blue ray requires larger initial investments to manufacture (which implies higher prices) and it just so happens that Sony are the only people selling the equipment to manufacture the discs. Sony is exploiting their movie studios and the PS3 platform to allow them to create a vertically integrated monopoly.

Additionally, the technology of the content software in HD-DVD is more consumer friendly. While they both have AACS, Blue Ray had to add in the extra BD+ security, which was done in such a heavyhanded way that equipment on the market is hanving trouble with it. I'd prefer to have no DRM, but if that's not possible, I'll go with the one that has *less* DRM. HD-DVD also has the advantage of *launching* with the HDi advanced menu systems, while Blue Ray is only adding it in now, and again rendering older equipment (potentially) incompatible.

But you know what I like the most about HD-DVD? No previews/advertisements that I have to wait or skip through when I load up a disc. With HD-DVD, part of the spec is the requirement that it goes directly to the menu or the movie, without any mandatory previews along the way. I don't know about you, but I find it annoying when I put in a disc to watch a movie, and have to wait for 2 minutes while the player boots up, loads the VM/security system "for my protection" and then makes me sit through 5 minutes of commercials to try to sell me movies that I either already have or do not want, on a platform that I've already shelled out the cash for.

Anyone that read that all, thank you for your time, and I hope that you didn't find it too boring :-p

Mourge

@zach: yeah you're looking at the wrong cases. I've got quite a few HD DVDs and they all have titles on the edges..and they're in red cases.

gibson424

@Bob_Fett: some sanity, thanks Fett man. And don't feel bad, you've been watching HD movies and playing the latest games for a cost that was obviously acceptable to you at the time of purchase.
When I go briefly back to the PS2 it makes me cringe.

fastm3driver

@Andy S.: Yup, and hometaped movies of you and your wife are called "Hi-Fidelity Movie Reproduction"

Guizzy

@Andy S.: maybe it is, maybe it is. My keyboard sucks and I type fast so I don't get bumped to the bottom. :) I think my points are valid even with typo's and such.

fastm3driver

@zach: WTF are you talking about? All the ones I own have titles on the edge. They're not in black cases either. HD DVD cases are red, and Blu-ray ones are blue. What

Wiseblood

I wont buy any HD movies until they change the packaging that the movies come in. Who on earth ever thought it would be a good idea to get rid of the title on the edge of the case? So now.. if I go out and buy a ton of these shiny new HD movies I'll put them on my shelf and wont be able to tell which movie is which without pulling it of the shelf. That.. is stupid.

(someone correct me if I am wrong.. but but both HD DVD and BlueRay cases are the 'fancy' new black cases with no title bar on the edge.)

zach

@deso: I know what you mean, but betamax did not win and that was better quality than VHS

xxenclavexx

I bought the A3 this weekend as all the a2s were sold out. I knew it was 1080i. I am also an early adopter (which has screwed me-PS3, 360(no HDMI),now 5 year old HDTV with burn in) I watch BD on my PS3 (looks great) and now HDDVD (looks great)on my A3. These are both hooked up to a 720p/1080i projector throwing a 10 ft image and I am sitting roughly 11 ft away. If it looked any better my eyes would bleed.Please stop with all the 1080i/p BS.If I had more money than I could spend of course I would upgrade at every opportunity but I can't so I get things to enjoy them now before i need coke bottle glasses to see the spoon in my mush. In 1-2 years when 1080p is affordable and abundant I will upgrade.Until then I will read all the comments and laugh and laugh. In HD tru Dolby of course.

Bob_Fett

@SchruteBuck: aww man..i know. i was trying to be funny too. i guess i failed. damn internet and its lack of conveying the tone of a message!

gibson424

@fastm3driver: "movie reproduction"? Is that just a fancy way of saying "pr0n"?

Andy S.

@SchruteBuck: It must be the sweat I worked up last night screwing your mother.

I kid. I kid.

omg-ponies

@gibson424: I just picked random commenters. Oh and, BE QUIET FANBOY!!!!

Why are we all hating on each other again? Oh yeah, format war. GO PROPRIETY FORMAT FROM EACH STUDIO!!!!

SchruteBuck

@Eric: Toshiba footed the bill for the damage, that's where all the recent price cuts on products are coming from.

I already got my HD-DVD add-on and it is the shit.

sisedi

@SchruteBuck: oops..i thought everyone wanted my opinion. don't you know who i am?!....no?...oh.....

gibson424

@DomZ: The main part of the A3 is an NEC EMMA3 SoC doing most of the video and audio decoding work supplemented with a NEC VR5701 for HDi.

The A1 was literally a Pentium 4-M PC. It even had a PC2700 SODIMM as its memory.

Wiseblood

@SchruteBuck: You's a funny dude. I accept. But my cut healed awhile ago.

Earthslide

@Earthslide: You need to let that cut under your nose heal.
@omg-ponies: You smell.
@tomaartist: You're a fanboy.
@DomZ: That shirt looks stupid.
@gibson424: Who asked you?
@zakeen: Put a sock in it.
@ANoel: There's 20 seconds of my life I'll never get back.
@SchruteBuck: You're the biggest moron of all, please shut up now.

What was this post about again?

SchruteBuck

You might as well hook up an external HDD to your computer - 500 GB for 150 usd. Not as sleek - but it does serve the same purpose.
[www.acne.org]

jackattaway2

From the Guru's themselves

"My bold-printed, big-lettered breaker above is a little sensationalistic, but, as far as movies are concerned, this is basically true."

[www.hometheatermag.com]

jutman

@Hodo: The question was "Which was first? Blue ray or HD?" In response to that question, Bluray was first. But thanks for the insight.

gibson424

It seems like teh technology is not quite right there. For those who can wait another year or so may be wiser. Or, if having to buy something now maybe just buy a external harddisk to your computer - 500 GB for 150 USD...Maybe not as elegant but it does basically the same.
[science.reddit.com]

jackattaway2

@Earthslide: Evidently while I popped off for lunch, you saw the need to ad hominem attacks. Please stop. In my experience, the first person to hurl an insult in a debate loses.

That said, I have a 2 year-old 34" Sony XBR HDTV with a maximum resolution of 1080i. It's CRT because, for the money, it was the best option out there. CRT has the best contrast ratio and widest viewing angle plus is perfectly suited for both movies and video games. The kicker was the CNET review that mentioned that it used that model TV as the reference model. The TV sits in a corner and isn't ever moved, rendering the 200 lb. weight irrelevant because - well, why would I want to move my TV on a regular basis?

Bottom line - the TV I have is perfectly acceptable for my needs and cost very little at the time. I don't need an LCD television; I need one that does the best job for the least cost. Moreover, marketing slogans to the contrary, it is a high-definition television set.

My viewing distance is about 7-8 feet and I wear glasses. In my experience, I have never been able to distinguish between 1080i and 1080p and. because I (i.e. the guy who pays the credit card bill at the end of the month) can't tell the difference, I see no reason to plunk down the extra money.

Further, I have no current plans to buy a PS3 even though it comes with Blu-Ray built in simply because I already have an XBOX 360 that I only play on the weekends, if then. I am format agnostic. Whoever comes out with the best, cheapest player first wins my money. I'm on a DVD buying hiatus anyway because "media furniture" is not a good decorating scheme.

I'm not cheap. I just don't believe in spending money on wasting assets that is better spent on paying down student loan and mortgage debt.

Thank you to the rest for the support. It is much appreciated.

omg-ponies

last May I dumped my 1080i projection hdtv on craigs list and i could 'nt
get more than 500. bucks for it. I upgraded to 1080p mitsubishi dlp.
if i waited any longer, the tv would have been worthless to anybody.
like i said before no one makes 1080i tvs anymore, then why buy this
machine?

tomaartist

@Wiseblood: Not exactly true, my A3 still has a lot of PC guts in it and takes quite a while to boot up just like a PC.

DomZ

@gibson424: Uh, actually Blu-ray was first as a PC/data storage standard. HD DVD was first as a video standard -- this also explains why (with the exception of 1080p) every HD DVD player has the same basic capabilities, such has PIP, ethernet, etc. Much of the work that Sony has done to BD has been to change it from a data storage format to a video format.

Hodo

I picked up an HD-A3 from BB and got 5 free instant (3 of my choice, 2 in the box) and 5 free by mail in rebate w/ a 10% off coupon for a total of $180.00+tax, can't beat it.

Put it this way, BB, Walmart, Sears, Frys, Crutchfield, CC, etc all moved a LOT of players this weekend. It works out for them, sell players at a loss before the holiday season and start to recoup the loss through media sales in the future.

DomZ

@Earthslide: pre-emptive apology for the "sarcastic" remark. I usually like to see what people have to say in the comments on these posts..but I hate when it turns into bickering over which format is better and who "is going to win" when no one can say for sure.

gibson424

@zakeen: Bluray was first. Sony and Toshiba tried to negotiate to have one standard and...well we can all see what happened.

[en.wikipedia.org]

gibson424

That post you linked to claiming a $500 loss of each player was using a price breakdown of the A1 and applying it to the A2s and A3s actually being sold. The A1 is pretty much a PC made to look like a DVD player. The A2 is a much simpler design and the A3 is even more so.

Wiseblood

folks, I may have some bad news for you - I believe that the A2 & A3 models are not true 1080 anything - I think they are lower resolution machines that do upconverting to simulate 1080... It's their A30 & A35 that are the true 1080 machines. Play nice everyone!

image18301

Which was first? Blue ray or HD?

zakeen

@fastm3driver: my mistake I yomeant to say on my 56" 1080p TV. I have a older 50" 720p too but haven't tried the A3 player on it yet.
As a note, the 1080p TV looks better but I think it's because the TV is 3 years newer not because of the 1080p part. newer scaler/tuner... Just my take.

And if your going to comment on this stuff please mention your hardware and how you use it because anyone who hasn't used all this stuff in the real world doesn't have a clue.

fastm3driver

HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray.
Fanboiz START YOUR DIATRIBES!

ANoel

@newgalactic: exactly

people like my parents (who took advantage of this sale) only have a 1080i television and absoluely love it. Every time an HD show comes on, my dad says "what a great picture." They don't even know what 1080 means, let alone the difference between i and p. So why spend another $100 on something they, a.) can't take full advantage of, and b.) don't even care about. (that something being a 1080p player)

gibson424

@gibson424: Poo flinging already stopped :)

Earthslide

Wow, so price IS the sticking point. Who would have thought.

1080i/1080p, I can be all but be absolutely sure that NONE of the 90,000 who bought the $99 dollar machine even noticed any difference between the two. And if they did, they were already in the know prior and they knew what they were getting into. Point is, no one was disappointed at all.

newgalactic

@Eric: I think they were just clearing out A2's before the A3'a showed up. no big deal. I also noticed the A2 had 2 usb ports and the A3 only has one.

fastm3driver

feel sorry for those SUCKAS!!!

tomaartist

@Earthslide: You sure are sarcastic. What is the source of your frustration? You buy what you want, other people buy what they deem acceptable.

gibson424

@deso: FUD

fastm3driver

@Earthslide: Here's my take:
I have Planet earth on Blu-ray(arguably the best HD movie) and I think it looks OK on the PS3. I haven't seen it on a stand alone player yet.
I had the 360 HD player and I thought it looked OK but that combined with player noise and the 360 itself humming in the background I sold it.
So this weekend I bought the $200 A3(with a 12% off coupon) and got 10 free movies. So I can say after watching movies on my new 50" 1080p TV it is easily better than both game systems with regard to operation, and movie reproduction. So I see the PS3 as a stop gap to a real stand alone player if I ever get one. Again, the HD-DVD interface is better too. FYI most HD disc's I see are 2 layer 30GB and most bluray are 1 layer 25Gb(I've seen 1 layer hd-dvd's but no 2 layer bluray). It's like most PS3 games are 1080p and most 360 games are 1080p.
So for me HD-DVD is better(except I like the coating on blu-ray disc's better) in all respects regardless of price. With player at half the price and under $200 I think they have the nod. Please tell me if you watch movies on your PS2; that's want I bought it for but it sucked as a movie player.

fastm3driver

Slash prices to move stale inventory?
That's crazy talk!

Lorne

I just want Bluray to win the format war because it is more ready for the future,higher capacity,thats all.

deso

can't we all just get along?

and no, there is no "noticeable" difference between 1080i and 1080p to the average consumer's eye..and anyone that tells you there is is either a trained professional or a stupid fanboy. When you're talking HD, even 720p looks fantastic and should cause no complaints.

Let's all just watch our HD content and stop flinging so much poo.

gibson424

I realized it was 1080i before I bought it, and still did, just as I purchased a Plasma TV last year that did not have 1080p.... at $99, it was a steal. In four years, if HD-DVD survives, then I can buy a 1080p player for $99. Right now, I cannot view any source better than 1080i. I guess I should have just saved up for a new TV and gotten a 1080p player, as I'll never be truely happy with my purchase ;-)

Honestly, I didn't think I would see a difference from this "fire sale" but HD-DVDs that were in used markets shot up in price (certain ones I was watching on Amazon used merchants and Ebay). Guess there are a lot more people in the HD-DVD audience buying media.

Lizard_King

@LTS!: I got 1080p for HD & Blu-Ray. "Inferior?" For a hundred bucks more why not get the best?

Earthslide

I bought one and love it.

Looks great on my 1080i set, better than anything I have ever seen on broadcast HD. I'll take that for $100.

arkowi

"If the company loses $500 per player, we're talking $45 million over one weekend"

First and foremost, I sincerely doubt Toshiba would be producing those players and selling them for $300 retail if they cost that much. This isn't Sony here.

And second, why would Toshiba be taking the loss? They had already sold the players to Wal-Mart and Best Buy. Unless Toshiba was offering some sort of subsidy, they didn't lose money in those sales-- the retailers did.

Eric

@Earthslide: So you admit you purchased "inferior" equipment? Apparently even YOU aren't interested in always having HIGH QUALITY H2O..err HD.

Look, you made a stupid comment, you got called on it. Live and learn, and move on before you make more stupid comments.

LTS!

@Earthslide: There is minimal difference if any as long as you have a 1080p tv that deinterlaces the signal correctly. You end up with the exact same 1080 lines of resolution whether the player outputs a progressive signal or an interlaced signal.

milrtime83

@tetracycloide: Biased? Well sorry if I don't read every tech news out there. I didn't know I quoted it from some other source. I have a HD & Blu-Ray so there's no need to be Biased.

Earthslide

@Earthslide: how is that 'jumping to conclusions' when you quoted the exact selling point of sony's blu-ray over toshiba's hd-dvd? if you're going to be biased at least own up to it instead of acting offended when someone calls you on it.

tetracycloide

@omg-ponies: You're a moron already. I have a HD DVD Player too. Do you jump to conclusions that fast? If you do, stay out of anything journalism because you are poor at it.

Earthslide

yeah i came into my local walmart at around 3pm on sat and they were already sold out. me and my 40" 1080i TV would have been perfectly happy with a $99 1080i HDDVD player too :(

tetracycloide

@omg-ponies: That's a good way of thinking about it. I really wish this format "war" would end soon.

Enginerd22

My HDTV support all the 480, 7xx and 1080i...is there a noticable difference with the 1080P? I mean my 1080i looks great already.

im_here_for_the_food

@Earthslide: I doubt that 90,000 of the people who bought this have 1080p sets, much less even plugged the thing in yet (gifts).

ceilingFANBOY

Obviously the HD-DVD crew is stepping up their game and paying Toshiba for their loss. Think about it, how is either of them going to beat the other without having enough players in the homes of the consumer in the first place? Blu Ray may have to step up their game and shell out some $98 players to compete with HD-DVD on player distribution. Whatever the case, the consumer is going to win here folks.

methodlimp

@Earthslide: Thank you Sony marketing department.

omg-ponies

90,000 just realized it's only 1080i. 1080p, Yea there is a difference if you want high quality HD.

Earthslide

I'd rather take a $500 loss on 90,000 players sold for $100 than a $600 loss on 90,000 that don't get sold.

Take the loss and then write it off, knowing that it's a step forward in a prolonged format war in which the stakes are licensing royalties.

It's sort of like complaining about having to pay capital gains tax: yes, you are paying taxes. But it's out of money you made.

omg-ponies

@Mourge: "By extending the DVD spec in the way that they did, they allowed manufacturers to quickly upgrade their equipment and be able to crank out new content with a lower capital investment."

[gizmodo.com]

someToast

@jutman: "Toshiba is selling their player for a $400 - $500 loss BUT if they completely loose the HD vs. BR battle they stand to loose a LOT more."

You left an "o" out of "looss".

someToast

1080i will NEVER EVER create the same image as 1080p. Saying otherwise is wrong in every respect.

The difference(i vs. p) is small and only relevant on sports and fast action.

What people are referring to is 1080psf. In Progressive Scan Format,psf, a progressive signal is split into 2 interlaced fields at 2x the frame rate to produce a progressive image. This is done in professional broadcasting to utilize the existing video infrastructure because 1080p requires a higher bandwidth.( a real video engineer can explain exactly why) Needless to say your tv DOES NOT DO THIS. There is no consumer tv that supports 1080i/p/psf

A tv has a lot of options on what to do to fill the missing %50 of the raster. The cheapest option is to simply stretch the existing data, ie half the resolution. The next is to interpolate the missing data in a frame. From there there are all sorts of fancy ways that a tv can make up for missing every other line, most of them are very good.

To make it perfectly clear 1080/60i does not equal 1080/30p EVER.

In most cases people won't notice the difference between interlaced vs progressive there is no need to lie or spread false information on this.

Techguy1138

1080p TV displays 1080i perfectly - I actually have an a1 and an a35 on a 1080p display - cant tell the diference. 1080p on the device is just a marketing thing - its only important on tv. This is a 100" projector so yes I can tell between 720p and 1080p for instance.

I have both btw - i think the war is dumb and movie prices are too high anyways - 99 player and 15 dollar movies is where it needs to be with one format

twylight

1080i/60 transfer of 1080p/24 disc content is indistinguishable from 1080p/60 transfer. In the 1080i case, you transfer the 24 frames in 48/60ths or a second, in the 1080p case you do it twice as fast, in 24/60ths of a second. BUT BOTH ARE FASTER THAN IS NEEDED.

It does mean that the TV has to handle the information correctly, but there is no certainty that it will handle one format better than the other, or indeed, handle either format correctly.

Even if you have a 120 frame/second display, with a small buffer and proper reconstruction of the 24 original frames, there is no difference at all.

kcmurphy88

Why do you persist in this "losing hundreds of dollars" nonsense. A quick view of the HD-A2 service manual and a half hour's research made it clear to me that AT WORST these things cost $250 to make, and $150 is more likely. The HD-A3 is no doubt cheaper.

[www.avsforum.com]

kcmurphy88