@HeartBurnKid: No, im saying don't steal peoples wifi just cuz they don't know how to lock it down.

If you don't know how to do it, you should learn how before you do it. That's simply common sense.

Most people don't even know that the network needs to be locked down. Nor do people even change the admin passwords on the routers

A simple google search for "router admin password list" returns...
A List of most common default passwords as the number 1 hit.

Joseph

I have no moral objection to borrowing someone else's network connection if it's open. If I leave the keys in my car's ignition and my neighbor borrows it to run to the grocery store, I would also not object... esp if he leaves a few bucks in the ashtray for gas.

swansong

@Joseph: So, what you're saying is that ignorance should simply be excused?

That's like saying that I don't know how to drive, therefore if I get behind the wheel and hit something, it's not my fault.

If you don't know how to do it, you should learn how before you do it. That's simply common sense.

When you have an open wifi signal, it's just that: open. It's an invitation to come on in and join the network. WEP may be easily cracked, but at least it's an indication that this is a private network, and thus keeps honest people off your private bandwidth.

HeartBurnKid

I can see 12 wifi networks from my living room. (I <3 SF) All but one are locked up tight as a drum. Including my own, I should add. The guy that has his open, CHOOSES to open his network. In fact, in my opinion, everyone who doesn't lock their network down, chooses to provide an open network.

phlavor

@mullingitover: The only time I see "Free Wireless Internet" being broadcast is when it's an SSID from an ad hoc network, usually in an airport. Not an offer I'd ever accept.

sumocat

Cracking an encrypted wifi signal is stealing, logging onto an open wifi signal is not.

Aneurism

@mullingitover: There are a lot of people in general who are very ignorant on the topic of wireless networking. It's not that they don't want to enable security, it's that they don't even know that it is an option to be enabled. The intelligence in Gizmodo community is very smart when it comes to computers in general so that doesn't apply here, but just the fact that there are so many wireless networks open is a hint that people don't know how to lock them down.

Joseph

this is sucgh a stupid debate. if you don't want to share your wifi signal, then you need to use some kind of protection on it.

saying that it's stealing to use an open wifi signal is like saying that it's stealing if you look at your neighbors big screen tv of a football game when they have their windows wide open or tapping your foot when you can hear your neighbor's music playing upstairs.

if you take a $5 bill and lay it on the street and then walk away, it's not stealing if someone sees it and takes it.

Most people don't even use 1% of the bandwidth they are paying for.

it seems ridiculous to me that some states may have actually made it illegal to use an open wi-fi signal. if i recall correctly, my mac laptop was setup by default to automatically use any available, unrotected wifi spot by default. it doesn't ask for my approval and it doesn't tell me what signal i'm using unless i ask it to or change the settings. it just looks for the first available, open signal and uses it.

someday i hope we have free wifi hotspots everywhere and maybe some new business model where we buy subscriptions in order to reserve a guaranteed, higher amount of bandwidth. but where basic broadband is free to everyone and blankets almost everyone.

Terranova

First, this is the least qualified statistic I've ever read. Does this group of "computer users" include desktop users? If so, that's a crazy high percentage of people stealing wifi.

Second, stealing wifi is dumb because it assumes the guy you're stealing it from isn't stealing your data in return.

sumocat

@HoseHead: Security wise, unless your a networking expert, that's pretty stupid, no matter how nice you're trying to be. Most people don't realize that C$ is wide open on windows boxes and it wouldn't take more than 2 mins on an open wifi to plant a key stroke trojan and get all their personal information. That'd be way easier than the "My name is Phillip from Nigeria and I just won 25 Million dollars but in order to get the money, I need your SSN, your Bank Accounts, Your Place of work, your home address, and your drivers license scanned."

That's as smart as leaving your house open so anyone can come in and take a crap on your toilet and saying "I'm just sharing my stuff with the neighborhood."

Joseph

I'm currently leaving this comment via my neighbors unsecured wifi. OK, no I'm not but that would have been oh so appropriate.

If you aren't smart enough to lock down your signal you get what you deserve.

St3v3

Sockamtume, Joseph:
Let's not split hairs: if you make your network open to anyone, you are offering access. If you don't want to offer access, don't offer it.

Broadcasting "Free Internet Here!" and then getting upset when people take you up on your offer is absurd. It blows me away that anyone could fail to understand that much.

mullingitover

hmm, ok, not stealing maybe, but still unethical.

EMoShunz

Has anyone ever considered that some people leave their wifi open so that others can use it? it's called sharing. something you're supposed to learn about in kindergarten.

HoseHead

i jack wifi whenever im not home XP sum1 neighbour alway got that stuff up woot

Arsenal6

How as the wording for the survey?

For instance I pay (a LOT) for broadband at home, but on the road if I can find unencrypted wifi I'll use it. Where does that leave me?

An ISP already gets my money and I'm not somehow stealing EVDO wireless. I'm merely using what I paid for.

Grey areas are fun!

jibbly

@mullingitover: Actually, that depends on where you live. In some places Piggybacking is illegal, even if its wide open.

It is a legally and ethically controversial practice, with laws that vary in jurisdictions around the world. While completely outlawed in some jurisdictions, it is permitted in others.

[en.wikipedia.org])

No one is getting in my network once I set up a radius server and enable 802.1x 2048bit certificate authentication on my router. And thanks to Leopard server, that will be very easy :). I wonder if it's illegal to hack someones box if they jump on your wifi?

Joseph

@mullingitover: You're using a service someone else has paid for either way. Very, very, very few criminal acts have a valid defense of "it was really easy".

Sockatume

I'd like to ste-- umm-- borrow others wifi but I have a powerbook and the range is about 10'.

Zing!

homerjay

I use my neighbors connections all the time. I have 3 open ones I can choose from. And I agree, if there's no protection on the connection, it's for anyone's taking.

gunbu

So, if I'm rocking out in my house to iTunes, and I see some dude on the sidewalk is listening to my music, can I have him arrested for stealing my music? I paid for it right? Just because he can access it doesn't give him a right to 'use' it?

Latching onto an unsecured WiFi link is no more stealing than the example above. If people are too dim, uninformed or lazy to set up security on a hotspot, then they are essentially acting as a free WiFi provider. Maybe they could get a nice espresso machine and sell Lattes out of their driveway while they are at it.

av8thor

I see it as "using a free hot spot" just like some airports or college campuses. If it's open, it's on.

jsayreallen

@Carbonfly: Agreed. If I can pickup my upstairs neighbors signal in my living room -it's mine. Its not the same as stealing a newspaper in the morning. Its more like I have the right to a copy of the newspaper when the neighbor keeps delivering them to my door every second of every day.

SeattleTed

IMO, if it's not encrypted, then it's not stealing....just borrowing.

Carbonfly

Wow, people really like to throw the term 'stealing' around where it's not applicable.

When you're breaking people's WEP encryption, that's potentially something you could label as stealing. Logging onto an open wifi spot != stealing. Can you correct this article please?

mullingitover

i have, just to see if i could, my connection is too fast to want to lose packets to a distant signal.

EMoShunz

I steal a lot of things on the internet, but I don't steal internet to steal them.

Joseph

@RiceBandit: Just because someone leaves the keys to their car in the ignition doesn't give you the right to drive away with it.

Your second issue is a design issue. Address it to the people who make the technology.

omg-ponies

Okay, funny arguments, but it makes me wonder:

If latching onto someone else's wi-fi is illegal, why would they even have a security option? Why not just lock it to begin with and not even make it an option?

Furthermore, when you try to log on, and it shows you the list of signals it's picking up, why even show the ones that are locked? Just show the ones that are available.

RiceBandit

@mullingitover: Welcome to the United States, my friend. Yes, we legislate to the lowest common denominator. We also design warnings to that same lowest common denominator.

Many places make it illegal to ride a bicycle or motorcycle without a helmet. Why? Because it's dangerous to ride a bicycle of motorcycle without a helmet. Some would argue that more competent riders shouldn't be inconvenienced; but the counter is that legislation is needed to prevent the undercautious from engaging in potentially dangerous behavior. (my position is that it should be illegal inasmuch as people involved in accidents have serious injuries that drain public resources such as Medicare)

Many laws smack of paternalism, some in horrible, horrible ways. Abortion is king of the paternalistic laws - with anti-abortion legislation being aimed at stamping out sin. IM me if you want my rant on why the pro-lifers' position is internally inconsistent and theologically flawed.

Want to know how to get people to lock down their wireless? Require that cable companies send a disclaimer with the bill every month instructing users to lock down their wireless. Then pass legislation that "technical ignorance" shall not be an affirmative defense to a lawsuit to recover damages for copyright infringement and that a person who leaves their wireless network unsecured (as opposed to poorly secured) may be held liable upon proof that they received the monthly disclaimer for a series of consecutive billing cycles.

omg-ponies

@mullingitover: Haha you seem to have a lot a ?'s and not a lot of answers. I'm just trying to help you see that just cuz a car is running with the keys in it, that doesn't mean you should steal it.

I'm not to worried about it. It's gonna go the same way of car. Just like when cars were first being manufactured, they didn't have locks and now everyone knows how to use em very well. The generation that grows up with wireless technology will have it down to where locking your wifi connection is as simple as locking your car door.

Joseph

@mullingitover: responsable for consequences, yes. however, do they deserve to be taken advantage of, no.

EMoShunz

Joseph: "Most people don't even know that the network needs to be locked down. Nor do people even change the admin passwords on the routers"

So? Are we supposed to legislate the world for the willfully ignorant?

Seriously, this information is generally plastered all over the stuff that's included with your router. If people refuse to read it, they're still responsible for the consequences.

mullingitover

@HeartBurnKid: so what your saying is you are the police and should pull wifi users over for dangerous driving by hacking their network however easy that is

EMoShunz

@Joseph: exactly. ignorance does not mean you deserve to be taken advantage of.

EMoShunz

@St3v3: if you aren't smart enough to learn how to dodge a bullet, you deserve to get shot in the head

EMoShunz

the other 46 percent don't know what the internet is.

misplacedparadox

@omg-ponies:
"IM me if you want my rant on why the pro-lifers' position is internally inconsistent and theologically flawed."

Why would someone go to the trouble of IMing you to hear someone they don't know rant about a moral conviction most people have?

I'm just saying...

hughjass

ive seen cases of people getting arrested on the news for "stealing" wifi. look, if you're sitting in your home and your antenna picks up some douchebags signal and you log in to it, that should not be illegal. open networks should not be off limits. however if you go out of your way to crack someone's WEP, then yes that should be a crime SEVERELY punishable by law. compare it to someone listening in on your private phone conversations.

MacAddict21

@jibbly:
"An ISP already gets my money and I'm not somehow stealing EVDO wireless. I'm merely using what I paid for."
No, you're not using what you paid for. You're using what someone else paid for. You're only using what you paid for when you're at home, plugged in to your own connection.

The Internet isn't some massive pot that everyone throws their collective money into. You don't pay a single monthly fee and get to use any Internet connection you happen to stumble across.

Your ideas about this are bizarre, to say the least.

hughjass

Yeah who does this? I think for kicks I've tried and everyone has some sort of security set up. Plus its not that expensive, why would you even bother? Your two WOW accounts cost you more a month than that.

Now I've shared my key with people around the block before, cause they couldn't afford it or were buddies of mine.

Oneon1isto

@mullingitover: pretty sure ethically the sharing part is moot. at that point it becomes a fact that most IP's do not allow you to share your bandwidth, that reduces customers.

EMoShunz

Exactly, I "steal" wifi all the time, and I give mine away all the time as well, which is why my wireless network is open and called "Freenet" If you see it feel free to use the internet, or stream my movies/music off of my server.

If I want to surf securely, I'll ssh to my server, but I don't care if you see what I'm researching, buying or what porn I'm looking at.

JeffCarr

@mullingitover: If you live in an apartment building, post a memo on the bulletin board to the effect:

"Anyone who wants to openly share their wireless network, please write the name of your network and apartment number here. You assume any risks of liability that stems from openly sharing your network."

Or, pay for your own internet.

omg-ponies

Question for all the ethics experts here: how are you supposed to distinguish between the people who share their connections openly and don't care about piggybackers (I do this) and people who don't want to share but are willfully ignorant of how to use their router?

This is the problem. It's not illegal to share your connection, and it's not stealing if you don't intend to steal.

mullingitover

You can't steal Wi-Fi. Wi-Fi is public spectrum. If you are using someones internet then that is theft of service, and if you take any files from them, that is theft.

Since wi-fi is open to the public, anyone can monitor what is passing through the airwaves with a packet sniffer.

mrwifi

@Joseph: You took the words out of my mouth. Internet is one of the few things that I will pay for so I can have that fat connection go right into my computer. Screw someone else's Wifi, I want my own!

mmr

@omg-ponies:
Well, my point was why would anyone want to hear your rant?

hughjass

My p.o.s. acer 3690 doesn't even have the right drivers for wi-fi

killedbyninjas

as far a im concerned, if its beamed into my living room its tresspassing. ill use it. if anyone is breaking the law its the person filling my house with cancer causing radiation.

fostina1

@omg-ponies: did not read before clicking. fail.

remove the "im me" in the first sentence.

omg-ponies

@hughjass: Because they IM me want my rant on why the pro-lifers' position is internally inconsistent and theologically flawed. Not overyone is, which is why I'm not vomiting it up in the forum.

Besides, although "most people" may have the same moral conviction, the person IMing me may not.

omg-ponies

its only stealing if by using it you deprive the owner of their bandwidth. even then, its more akin to consuming an obviously unattended drink at a bar.

nutbastard

if i had a sattellite reciever that was setup to recieve any unencrypted tresspassing singnal (like my dell) i might. but damn now i gotta cover my whole house with aluminum foil.

fostina1

If I give it back when I'm done, it's not stealing.

morganlh85

@fostina1: hmm, guess your the type to "steal" satellite signals too, they're beamed into your living room.

EMoShunz

i think everyone is confusing the other person as the victim...it's the isp who is having their network slowed down without being payed for by the person in contract. the other person is the tool being used (insert your tool jokes here).

EMoShunz

How is using a wifi signal stealing? Is it stealing to listen to public radio when you don't submit to the fund raising drives?

isaacws